Been down all week and several locals told me there were two bodies found buried out in the desert last week near Rocky Point. I am hoping this only a bad rumor. Anyone else here of such a thing?
Two more homicides?
Started by rob4092xx · May 28, 2009 · 89 replies
I would like more info on the validity of this story….I’m kind of on the fence about going down. Thanks in advance for any info.
Apb
apb739 said:
I would like more info on the validity of this story….I’m kind of on the fence about going down. Thanks in advance for any info.
Apb
Well ya better stay out of Phoenix, Tucson, San Diego, LA, San Francisco, Denver, Albuquerque, NYC.........etc. :lol::lol::lol::lol:
I hear what you’re saying but I’m in my country. I have a good idea about the rules and how things work in the US. I’m bringing my wife and three kids to a different country, just trying to “do diligence”. :usa::-o
You are worrying waayyyy too much! If all of us tell you it's fine, then it's fine. I have been going to Rocky Point for 42 years. I'll let you know when it's not fine. Just stay out of the areas you would normally stay out of and you'll be fine. OK? OK!
Hmmmm. the narcos are known to break off from an attack on another narco to kill American children.I'd rub a little bacon grease on my least favorite child and the rest of you should be able to escape.
You might checkout Deadliest warrior (the sholin monk vs. the Maoiri Warrior to learn how to make a shark tooth club. It could come in handy
http://www.spike.com/video/aftermath-shaolin/3174698
You might checkout Deadliest warrior (the sholin monk vs. the Maoiri Warrior to learn how to make a shark tooth club. It could come in handy
http://www.spike.com/video/aftermath-shaolin/3174698
If they were killed in Rocky Point you can be assured it was from repeated hugs. Last I heard Barney was seen in the area, so cause of death was probably the hugs compounded by repeated singing of "I love you, you love me..."
apb739 said:I hear what you’re saying but I’m in my country. I have a good idea about the rules and how things work in the US. I’m bringing my wife and three kids to a different country, just trying to “do diligence”. :usa::-o
apb, I applaud you for at least having an open mind and not blindly falling into the sheep-like hyseria that has gripped many American travelers, thanks to the gross negligence of the media. Since we do have your attention, I cannot stress to you enough how completely unnecessary your fears are - it's not your fault - the media and then rampant rumor are to blame; it is truly ridiculous and a crime. There is nothing to be afraid of. Rocky Point is NOT Mexico City, Tijuana or Juarez - and even the stories from there are distorted and misunderstood. There truly is more crime and peril in American cities than anything close to RP. There were 2 drive-bye shootings in Scottsdale AZ last year - were you aware of this? Did you question the wisdom of driving there or eating there.... at all? Why not? How about Mesa where they average 9 homcides a year? Afraid of Mesa, AZ yet? You see my point? This apprehension of Mexico is not about reality - it's about perception. 100%. Dont be a silly, xenophobic American dummy and fear RP - regular, law abiding, school attending, business owning, grocery shopping people live there.... who just happen to speak Spanish and live much more modestly than we do. If Mexico was anywhere close to being "on the verge of collapse", do you think for a second the borders would not be shut down? I mean, really, come on - think about it. RP or any of Mexico is not the Gaza Strip - it's not Somalia.
I run a volleyball tournment every April & October in RP - just this past April 4th weekend 180 of us traveled to and from and had a delightful time - not one person was accosted with so much as a cross eyed stare by a Mexican citizen. Two weeks later many came down for a Triathlon. Many came for Memorial Day. Many are coming June 6th weekend for a concert. You are truly in more danger when you drive into Phoenix to see a D-Backs game - it's just that your perception (illusion) is that you are somehow "safer", more "in control" in white, English speaking Phoenix.
Don't be a fool - come and enjoy RP and don't fear it because of shameful hype.
Last edited: May 29, 2009 at 2:15 PM
All true but we really don't have current accurate crime statistics for Mexico, just the more sensational crimes that make the local news that lead us to this perception. I believe I posted elsewhere on here some UN crime stats that had Mexico pretty high up there. Of course, just as Detroit doesn't speak for Phoenix I wouldn't put Ciudad Obregon in the same basket as Puerto Penasco. I wouldn't make any blanket statements that "Rocky Point Is Safe" without knowing more facts. It all depends on what your risk tolerance is. "Life is full of risks, why not take them?" is my philosophy (and Lindsay Lohan's apparently LOL). There are inherrent risks to travelling in any country and Mexico is no exception. It's up to everyone to decide for themselves whether these risks are beyond their tolerance.
As for Rocky Point, there isn't any great barrier force field protecting from the problems the rest of the country experiences to varying degrees. I'm personally surprised that there isn't more violence and more drug trafficking. Maybe there is and we just don't hear about it. I think that Sonoyta is more dangerous than Rocky Point and the drive down is probably in between somewhere. Won't stop me from going because as I read the other day: "we are all sentenced to death" so if it's bound to happen eventually you might as well do the things you enjoy.
In Mexico there is no 911. Police corruption is rampant in some areas, and in my experience, present everywhere so you may not get the help you need when you need it unless you can pay. You won't be bringing your gun so you can't protect yourself with anything other than knives or clubs but mostly your wits. You can feel protected in the saying that "criminals know if they prey on tourists that tourism will be affected". Since when did criminals become smart? Perhaps Mexico forces them all to attend Universities.:roll:
I visit Tahiti fairly regularly and once had a similar discussion on another forum. Usually crime in French Polynesia is limited to cameras and cash dissappearing from unlocked overwater bungalows. The culprits are usually neighborhood kids that are dealt with by the community. IMO the culture is responsible for the perceived low crime rate as it is very family oriented. Also the people are 'rich' in the sense that they do not need very much to be happy (after all, they live in the true paradise of this planet). The OP was inquiring about bringing a gun because he did not want to become a victim. Everyone else attacked his motives but I personally saw his point of view. Doing a little research and I found a vicious triple homicide involving former NBA player Bison Dele, his wife, and their captain. I was there about the same time period as this happened, and nothing happened to me. Did this prove anything? Nope, anecdotes are just that. Guess I'm lucky I didn't accept any invitations to party on ball players yachts becuse those seem to hapen all the time. :-P Even more research found a possible link to a missing reporter, now presumed to be a homicide, and Tahiti's Emperor Gaston Flosse. So now I wonder if Paradise is exactly that or do we just not hear of the true crimes that occur?
Simply put, no place is really safe, it's just all what level of risk tolerance you are comfortable with.
As for Rocky Point, there isn't any great barrier force field protecting from the problems the rest of the country experiences to varying degrees. I'm personally surprised that there isn't more violence and more drug trafficking. Maybe there is and we just don't hear about it. I think that Sonoyta is more dangerous than Rocky Point and the drive down is probably in between somewhere. Won't stop me from going because as I read the other day: "we are all sentenced to death" so if it's bound to happen eventually you might as well do the things you enjoy.
In Mexico there is no 911. Police corruption is rampant in some areas, and in my experience, present everywhere so you may not get the help you need when you need it unless you can pay. You won't be bringing your gun so you can't protect yourself with anything other than knives or clubs but mostly your wits. You can feel protected in the saying that "criminals know if they prey on tourists that tourism will be affected". Since when did criminals become smart? Perhaps Mexico forces them all to attend Universities.:roll:
I visit Tahiti fairly regularly and once had a similar discussion on another forum. Usually crime in French Polynesia is limited to cameras and cash dissappearing from unlocked overwater bungalows. The culprits are usually neighborhood kids that are dealt with by the community. IMO the culture is responsible for the perceived low crime rate as it is very family oriented. Also the people are 'rich' in the sense that they do not need very much to be happy (after all, they live in the true paradise of this planet). The OP was inquiring about bringing a gun because he did not want to become a victim. Everyone else attacked his motives but I personally saw his point of view. Doing a little research and I found a vicious triple homicide involving former NBA player Bison Dele, his wife, and their captain. I was there about the same time period as this happened, and nothing happened to me. Did this prove anything? Nope, anecdotes are just that. Guess I'm lucky I didn't accept any invitations to party on ball players yachts becuse those seem to hapen all the time. :-P Even more research found a possible link to a missing reporter, now presumed to be a homicide, and Tahiti's Emperor Gaston Flosse. So now I wonder if Paradise is exactly that or do we just not hear of the true crimes that occur?
Simply put, no place is really safe, it's just all what level of risk tolerance you are comfortable with.
I'm sorry Submarine, but I really have to say you re missing the critical point with all your sarcastic "wit" about your "screw it, we're all gonna die one day" schtick. Apg's concerns are about his family and well being, as is 99% of us.
The point was never that Rocky Point is a Garden of Eden immmune to chance or human danger; no one was proposing that.
THE POINT IS: the perceived "threat" of Mexico/RP is way overblown and out of proportion and misunderstood - the point IS that there is a huge disconnect between skiddish American's perceptions and the reality of the "threat", both in regard to the fku and esp - especially with Killer/Kidnapping/Drug Mule Stuffing Mexican drug cartel vampires and the country being On-The-Brink-Of-Collapse. Nobody is preying upon Americans, and THAT is the hysterical hoax that has permeated. Don't be glib and snarky, man - that shit isn't going to help anyone gain confidence.
The point was never that Rocky Point is a Garden of Eden immmune to chance or human danger; no one was proposing that.
THE POINT IS: the perceived "threat" of Mexico/RP is way overblown and out of proportion and misunderstood - the point IS that there is a huge disconnect between skiddish American's perceptions and the reality of the "threat", both in regard to the fku and esp - especially with Killer/Kidnapping/Drug Mule Stuffing Mexican drug cartel vampires and the country being On-The-Brink-Of-Collapse. Nobody is preying upon Americans, and THAT is the hysterical hoax that has permeated. Don't be glib and snarky, man - that shit isn't going to help anyone gain confidence.
I think the point is that you can't prove any of that except with anecdotes. If Billy Bob and Martha go down and have a great time with not so much a lost wallet it doesn't prove anything, and those kind of anecdotes are all anyone can offer as 'proof' that Rocky Point is safe.
We have a motorhome destroyed on the road to RP and everyone sees it but no one knows if it was your run of the mill accident or another drug deal gone bad as what happened at the shrine stop before the 'curve' back in the 90's (what was the body count, 3?). Again, the problem is lack of real facts about what is going on down there. I'm sorry if this keeps Billy Bob & Martha from making a second trip or if it keeps their families from coming down but people have a right to know the truth so they can make their own decisions.
Sure the media reports are generalized and overblown, but not to the extent you are saying. These stories don't just invent themselves.
We have a motorhome destroyed on the road to RP and everyone sees it but no one knows if it was your run of the mill accident or another drug deal gone bad as what happened at the shrine stop before the 'curve' back in the 90's (what was the body count, 3?). Again, the problem is lack of real facts about what is going on down there. I'm sorry if this keeps Billy Bob & Martha from making a second trip or if it keeps their families from coming down but people have a right to know the truth so they can make their own decisions.
Sure the media reports are generalized and overblown, but not to the extent you are saying. These stories don't just invent themselves.
Submarine said:"I think the point is that you can't prove any of that except with anecdotes.
Sure the media reports are generalized and overblown, but not to the extent you are saying. These stories don't just invent themselves"
Dude - don't you get it? NO! No, that is NOT the freaking point, Stimpy! Anecdotes? Prove?! Again, you are missing the goddamn point! What proof are we looking at that RP or the road there IS especially (and THESE ARE the operative words: especially...unusually...alarmingly....notoriously) perilous to Americans? There IS NONE! What "stories" are you talking about, man? I mean, besides one from the 90's - one lone story from last decade, or one lone story last month? Proof? WTF are you proposing? How the hell are we to have "proof" that RP and the road there is a Yellow Brick Road? Do I need to prove the earth is round? Prove to me it's not.
Again------ the point IS..... here it comes with a drumroll and pay attention this time........... PERSPECTIVE!!!! YAY!!! Adults and intelligent people use it all the time. And how do we measure things in order to gain that perpsective and think CLEARLY in a useful manner (not like skiddish squirrels)? By measuring the real facts about RP/Mexico against what happens every stinking day here in America.
Just last night the news reported how one man shot another man in the face and killed him outside of Scottsdale nightclub Myst; was it the lead horror story about the social breakdown of Scottsdale? Hell no - it was buried midway through the broadcast and given no more than a 15 second mention.
Now..... what if this had happened in front of Pink Cadillac in RP? OH MY GOD..... there would be squawking and clucking and screamng and cries about the lawlessness and chaos is RP - DON"T GO!!! People are shooting each other - "I HEARD___"!
This is the essence of the PERSPECTIVE I keep preaching, Sub.
Don't you understand? You really feel comfortable telling us we need to "Prove" that things are "not dangerous"? Can you trace for me the VALID and REASONABLE sources of the hysteria and fear one might have about coming to RP?
Hey take a deep breath. Going back a bit, I re-read my post you responded to and I don't feel it was particularly sarcastic. Witty I can't help but hey, it's a gift!
You pretty much proved my point. I live in Gilbert, which is pretty much perceived as a 'safe' community. If I want to prove that to myself, I can go online and look at crime statistics: http://www.ci.gilbert.az.us/police/analysisstats.cfm And if I want to compare that against pretty much any other city in America I can find the same Uniform Crime Statistics quite easily. As you said, "Adults and intelligent people" use perspective by "measuring real facts about RP/Mexico against what happens every day in the U.S." Point me to the UCS of Rocky Point. Can't find it? Didn't think so.
You can, however, gain perspective looking at UN crime statistics for the entire country which I talked about here: http://www.rockypointtalk.net/showthread.php?t=511&highlight=murder+rate
This puts Mexico's murder rate at roughly 3 times that of the U.S. as a whole. Obviously there are 'hotspots' just like in the U.S. I think we would agree that the Border is a 'hotspot', the border you must navigate every time you go to Rocky Point.
My own perspective is that there have been murders on the road there, shootings at the border that made for a nice short wait across (got to get more of those when I'm there), dead bodies found in the desert the most high profile of which was the accountant for Puerta Privada (normal layoff process?), and; my favorite, the murder of Trish Huish by Ysenia Patino.
I have paid a couple of hundred in mordida over the years. Been stopped by numerous Federale patrols where 16 year olds carry M-60's and scare the crap out of whatever female happened to be in the car. I drive down every time knowing that any accident is likely to be fatal, regardless of how much I give the red cross people at the checkpoint. I've lost count of how many burning hulks I've seen on the side of the road during the trip down. Speaking of accidents, I've personally seen scores of ATV accidents including my own brother who was laid up in the hospital for 3 months. The last time we went there was a caravan of Californians who were escorting their friend back to the states as he was in an accident just as they arrived and it was pretty bad. Safe? No I would not call it safe. Acceptable level of risk is my term.
You can't ask locals about whether RP is safe because they will only reassure you because they have a vested interest. The Policia have the same interest but I doubt they keep any figures to back up their statements. Trying to get facts is like asking the Rocky Point Times for hard hitting investigative journalism. I'm a realist, not a scare-monger. I tell people what I know or have experienced and let them decide for themselves if it's too risky or not. I haven't had any serious incidents over the 30 years I've been going down, but I've never won the lottery either. Which is more likely to happen?
You pretty much proved my point. I live in Gilbert, which is pretty much perceived as a 'safe' community. If I want to prove that to myself, I can go online and look at crime statistics: http://www.ci.gilbert.az.us/police/analysisstats.cfm And if I want to compare that against pretty much any other city in America I can find the same Uniform Crime Statistics quite easily. As you said, "Adults and intelligent people" use perspective by "measuring real facts about RP/Mexico against what happens every day in the U.S." Point me to the UCS of Rocky Point. Can't find it? Didn't think so.
You can, however, gain perspective looking at UN crime statistics for the entire country which I talked about here: http://www.rockypointtalk.net/showthread.php?t=511&highlight=murder+rate
This puts Mexico's murder rate at roughly 3 times that of the U.S. as a whole. Obviously there are 'hotspots' just like in the U.S. I think we would agree that the Border is a 'hotspot', the border you must navigate every time you go to Rocky Point.
My own perspective is that there have been murders on the road there, shootings at the border that made for a nice short wait across (got to get more of those when I'm there), dead bodies found in the desert the most high profile of which was the accountant for Puerta Privada (normal layoff process?), and; my favorite, the murder of Trish Huish by Ysenia Patino.
I have paid a couple of hundred in mordida over the years. Been stopped by numerous Federale patrols where 16 year olds carry M-60's and scare the crap out of whatever female happened to be in the car. I drive down every time knowing that any accident is likely to be fatal, regardless of how much I give the red cross people at the checkpoint. I've lost count of how many burning hulks I've seen on the side of the road during the trip down. Speaking of accidents, I've personally seen scores of ATV accidents including my own brother who was laid up in the hospital for 3 months. The last time we went there was a caravan of Californians who were escorting their friend back to the states as he was in an accident just as they arrived and it was pretty bad. Safe? No I would not call it safe. Acceptable level of risk is my term.
You can't ask locals about whether RP is safe because they will only reassure you because they have a vested interest. The Policia have the same interest but I doubt they keep any figures to back up their statements. Trying to get facts is like asking the Rocky Point Times for hard hitting investigative journalism. I'm a realist, not a scare-monger. I tell people what I know or have experienced and let them decide for themselves if it's too risky or not. I haven't had any serious incidents over the 30 years I've been going down, but I've never won the lottery either. Which is more likely to happen?
Witty?
Thanks Sub, I've been looking for a descriptive term to use for you for years now...witty wasn't on my list, but I'll give it some consideration.:roll:
Witty I can't help but hey, it's a gift!
Thanks Sub, I've been looking for a descriptive term to use for you for years now...witty wasn't on my list, but I'll give it some consideration.:roll:
Has anyone confirmed this report? Seems that I have never heard anything other than one man's story that he heard from locals. If this individual is able to communicate with the locals it means he speaks good spanish and also has been hanging around Mexico long enough to know not to believe every thing that he hears at a bar.
PS Sub, next time you need a cop in PP dial 611. Don't try this number in Gilbert because they don't have it.
PS Sub, next time you need a cop in PP dial 611. Don't try this number in Gilbert because they don't have it.
Last edited: May 30, 2009 at 3:52 PM
dmcauley said:Has anyone confirmed this report? Seems that I have never heard anything other than one man's story that he heard from locals. If this individual is able to communicate with the locals it means he speaks good spanish and also has been hanging around Mexico long enough to know not to believe every thing that he hears at a bar.
PS Sub, next time you need a cop in PP dial 611. Don't try this number in Gilbert because they don't have it.
I thought the "emergency" number down there was 66..........
May be- Just kidding around
Submarine says:"You pretty much proved my point."
Which was...? I did??
Look, (laughing at the ridiculousness of this..) is Rocky Point under seige by drug thugs and boogie men - are people in any SPECIAL or elevated Defcon 5 danger of being kidnapped, beheaded, robbed, shot or spit at on the way to RP? That's the core question, remember?
I'm asking you why ISN'T RP safe? I am asking what justifies lumping RP in with Mexico at large and the current LEVEL of Mexico-phobia?
First you tell us report after report of safe travel means nothing - tens of thousands of "Bob & Marthas" experiencing safe travel means squat - that's brilliant - there could be nasty business befalling victims all the time and we just haven't heard it - I guess??
Then you give your own personal suspicions and anecdotes and vague example of cosmically possible danger.
Then you offer your philosphy that "we're all sentenced to die so do what you like", which was just weird.
Now you say it's probably not safe because I can't deliver a stat sheet of crime facts - more of the "if-you-can't-prove-it's-safe-then-how-do-we-know-it-isn't-dangerous" logic. Ass backwards, I'm sorry, but that is. (If you can't show me that a meteor attack is not coming this afternoon, then it may very well be school of thought?)
Now you are talking about old individual murders, ATV accidents, vague Federale spook stories and tales of burning hulks roadside (huh? - Road Warrior stuff or simple breakdowns - what are you suggesting?) Beruit?
Once again, I must force this concept of perspective down your throat - swallow it - it eat, it's good for you, I promise.
The point you tried to make that got my goat was this:
"I think the point is that you can't prove any of that except with anecdotes. If Billy Bob and Martha go down and have a great time with not so much a lost wallet it doesn't prove anything, and those kind of anecdotes are all anyone can offer as 'proof' that Rocky Point is safe."
You really don't see the insanity of this logic?
Let me put it in analogy:
Let's say you and I are about to exit our house together, at night.
Rocky Point and the road there are like the outside... at night, OK?
You say, with a straight face: "Stop. There might be ninjas out there."
To which I reply, "No I don't think so. Let's go."
You: "Prove to me there are no ninjas in the bushes with big Samurai swords."
Me: "Prove to you there are no ninjas? What the hell?"
You: "See you can't. Do you know for a fact we're not going to get a throwing star in the throat?"
Me: "Have there been a rash of ninja attacks I don't know about?"
You: "No. But that proves nothing. Maybe we just don't know about them. Can you prove ninjas are not ready to strike us down with bloody precise force? Can you?"
Me: "Umm... none of the neighbors have been executed; I think we are alright."
You: "Hmmph. That means nothing. Anecdotes. Peolple get attacked outside at night a lot."
Me: "Where?"
You: "Other places. I read about it. One time, in Nagasaki -"
Me: "Nagasaki?"
You: "And also in Taiwan, and also in this one ninja movie I saw. I also saw a car on fire. And a friend wrecked his bike once too."
Me: "What?? Ahem - So you won't go out, because.... I cannot prove to you there is no ninja behind our car?"
You: "I'm just saying there could be. But fukk it - I'm a risk taker!"
Me: "Uh....huh..."
Which was...? I did??
Look, (laughing at the ridiculousness of this..) is Rocky Point under seige by drug thugs and boogie men - are people in any SPECIAL or elevated Defcon 5 danger of being kidnapped, beheaded, robbed, shot or spit at on the way to RP? That's the core question, remember?
I'm asking you why ISN'T RP safe? I am asking what justifies lumping RP in with Mexico at large and the current LEVEL of Mexico-phobia?
First you tell us report after report of safe travel means nothing - tens of thousands of "Bob & Marthas" experiencing safe travel means squat - that's brilliant - there could be nasty business befalling victims all the time and we just haven't heard it - I guess??
Then you give your own personal suspicions and anecdotes and vague example of cosmically possible danger.
Then you offer your philosphy that "we're all sentenced to die so do what you like", which was just weird.
Now you say it's probably not safe because I can't deliver a stat sheet of crime facts - more of the "if-you-can't-prove-it's-safe-then-how-do-we-know-it-isn't-dangerous" logic. Ass backwards, I'm sorry, but that is. (If you can't show me that a meteor attack is not coming this afternoon, then it may very well be school of thought?)
Now you are talking about old individual murders, ATV accidents, vague Federale spook stories and tales of burning hulks roadside (huh? - Road Warrior stuff or simple breakdowns - what are you suggesting?) Beruit?
Once again, I must force this concept of perspective down your throat - swallow it - it eat, it's good for you, I promise.
The point you tried to make that got my goat was this:
"I think the point is that you can't prove any of that except with anecdotes. If Billy Bob and Martha go down and have a great time with not so much a lost wallet it doesn't prove anything, and those kind of anecdotes are all anyone can offer as 'proof' that Rocky Point is safe."
You really don't see the insanity of this logic?
Let me put it in analogy:
Let's say you and I are about to exit our house together, at night.
Rocky Point and the road there are like the outside... at night, OK?
You say, with a straight face: "Stop. There might be ninjas out there."
To which I reply, "No I don't think so. Let's go."
You: "Prove to me there are no ninjas in the bushes with big Samurai swords."
Me: "Prove to you there are no ninjas? What the hell?"
You: "See you can't. Do you know for a fact we're not going to get a throwing star in the throat?"
Me: "Have there been a rash of ninja attacks I don't know about?"
You: "No. But that proves nothing. Maybe we just don't know about them. Can you prove ninjas are not ready to strike us down with bloody precise force? Can you?"
Me: "Umm... none of the neighbors have been executed; I think we are alright."
You: "Hmmph. That means nothing. Anecdotes. Peolple get attacked outside at night a lot."
Me: "Where?"
You: "Other places. I read about it. One time, in Nagasaki -"
Me: "Nagasaki?"
You: "And also in Taiwan, and also in this one ninja movie I saw. I also saw a car on fire. And a friend wrecked his bike once too."
Me: "What?? Ahem - So you won't go out, because.... I cannot prove to you there is no ninja behind our car?"
You: "I'm just saying there could be. But fukk it - I'm a risk taker!"
Me: "Uh....huh..."
Last edited: May 30, 2009 at 4:55 PM
The police emergency is 066. I asked a cop friend of mine about the supposed incident and he said that he had heard no such report. Now I think that he would know don't you? Sub, come on will ya? You're the glass half empty kind of guy huh? I know you like the shorter wait at the border but trying to scare people away is the medias job not yours. I once had a cooler stolen out of the back of my truck. It was parked in front of a bar at 1:30AM. Lions and tigers and bears, oh my.
Lmfao
Sub, you disparage the use of anecdotal evidence and then you provide us with -- more anecdotal evidence? :-P :-P :-P :-P
La Huerita said:Sub, you disparage the use of anecdotal evidence and then you provide us with -- more anecdotal evidence? :-P :-P :-P :-P
Yes and I gave you hard facts too (see the link), but no one seems to understand anything but andecdotal evidence around here.
m4shawn said:Submarine says:"You pretty much proved my point."
Which was...? I did?? By repeating more anecdotal evidence and not even trying to find any facts.
Look, (laughing at the ridiculousness of this..) is Rocky Point under seige by drug thugs and boogie men - are people in any SPECIAL or elevated Defcon 5 danger of being kidnapped, beheaded, robbed, shot or spit at on the way to RP? That's the core question, remember? Yes they are, statistically. If you live in the United States, all of it, your statistical probability of suffering a violent crime doubles once you cross the border. This is fact, not my opinion.
I'm asking you why ISN'T RP safe? I am asking what justifies lumping RP in with Mexico at large and the current LEVEL of Mexico-phobia? Because RP is relatively close to the border and as a realist I see no reason for assuming that it is, or shall continue to be, insulated from violence in other cities. You might research any number of Jerry's posts to see other communities that were once considered safe and have fallen victim to the narco violence and more.
First you tell us report after report of safe travel means nothing - tens of thousands of "Bob & Marthas" experiencing safe travel means squat - that's brilliant - there could be nasty business befalling victims all the time and we just haven't heard it - I guess?? You can find reports of problems, but they aren't compiled in any easily searchable and codified format. Just to be clear, the "bob and martha's" I was referring to are mostly from post here where any particular individual says they have gone down for years and not had problems, their friends didn't have problems. However, most of the people here will admit some issues if you delve a little deeper. Some have even been posted here. No they have not risen to the level of kidnapping but there have been some pretty interesting confrontations with the Police.
Then you give your own personal suspicions and anecdotes and vague example of cosmically possible danger. Just speaking in a language you understand, sorry it's not all roses. I don't see your reference to 'cosmically possible danger' though.
Then you offer your philosphy that "we're all sentenced to die so do what you like", which was just weird. If you took the time to read my post you would see that is in quotes and I read it somewhere else. I found that perspective interesting.
Now you say it's probably not safe because I can't deliver a stat sheet of crime facts - more of the "if-you-can't-prove-it's-safe-then-how-do-we-know-it-isn't-dangerous" logic. Ass backwards, I'm sorry, but that is. (If you can't show me that a meteor attack is not coming this afternoon, then it may very well be school of thought?) Here again your logic fails. We can track asteroids and such, here is one site: http://neat.jpl.nasa.gov/ You may find the FAQ quite interesting, particularly #5 http://neat.jpl.nasa.gov/neofaq.html So again, you proved my point. If we are particularly concerned about an asteroid hitting Earth of the size that can cause a catastrophic event there are people looking and compiling that information. If I want to find out if Mexico is safe overall I can go to UN crime statistics and see it isn't as a whole. But if I want to go to RP tomorrow and wonder if everything is still OK all i have is rosy opinions from people here who are afraid of affecting tourism.
Now you are talking about old individual murders, ATV accidents, vague Federale spook stories and tales of burning hulks roadside (huh? - Road Warrior stuff or simple breakdowns - what are you suggesting?) Beruit?
I've seen more burned vehicles on the road to RP than I ever have on Arizona highways. I drive for a living so I find his particularly interesting. I see dozens of wrecks on I-10 on any given month yet few turn into fireballs.
Once again, I must force this concept of perspective down your throat - swallow it - it eat, it's good for you, I promise. Try as you might, you just aren't John Stossel.
The point you tried to make that got my goat was this:
"I think the point is that you can't prove any of that except with anecdotes. If Billy Bob and Martha go down and have a great time with not so much a lost wallet it doesn't prove anything, and those kind of anecdotes are all anyone can offer as 'proof' that Rocky Point is safe."
You really don't see the insanity of this logic?
Let me put it in analogy:
Let's say you and I are about to exit our house together, at night.
Rocky Point and the road there are like the outside... at night, OK?
You say, with a straight face: "Stop. There might be ninjas out there."
To which I reply, "No I don't think so. Let's go."
You: "Prove to me there are no ninjas in the bushes with big Samurai swords."
Me: "Prove to you there are no ninjas? What the hell?"
You: "See you can't. Do you know for a fact we're not going to get a throwing star in the throat?"
Me: "Have there been a rash of ninja attacks I don't know about?"
You: "No. But that proves nothing. Maybe we just don't know about them. Can you prove ninjas are not ready to strike us down with bloody precise force? Can you?"
Me: "Umm... none of the neighbors have been executed; I think we are alright."
You: "Hmmph. That means nothing. Anecdotes. Peolple get attacked outside at night a lot."
Me: "Where?"
You: "Other places. I read about it. One time, in Nagasaki -"
Me: "Nagasaki?"
You: "And also in Taiwan, and also in this one ninja movie I saw. I also saw a car on fire. And a friend wrecked his bike once too."
Me: "What?? Ahem - So you won't go out, because.... I cannot prove to you there is no ninja behind our car?"
You: "I'm just saying there could be. But fukk it - I'm a risk taker!"
Me: "Uh....huh..."
Completely ridiculous analogy not worth a response but I'll try.
You: Let's tell everyone to go to Rocky Point, it's Safe!
Me: why not tell them the truth, it may not be as safe as you are assuming.
You: What are you talking about? It's completely safe! RP isn't Tijuana!
Me: No, but it isn't immune to the sort of problems going on in the rest of the country, just as every community in America isn't immune from crime.
You: You're crazy! You don't have any perspective!
Me: Sure I do. I see that Mexico as a whole has double the crime rate of the U.S. I see that most of the violence occurs in cities near the border, and RP is pretty close. I see that RP could easily become victim to the same cartels that have terrorized other cities. I think it's important to be honest with people about the possible risks when travelling to RP.
You: None of my volleyball players had their heads cut off!
Me: well that just sucks for the rest of us doesn't it? It would sure make volleyball more interesting....
Submarine said:Yes and I gave you hard facts too (see the link), but no one seems to understand anything but andecdotal evidence around here.
Oh for crap's sake, Sub, you're hopeless. Just because you choose to ignore our point doesn't make it wrong. Some random Wikipedia statistic on UN murder rates from 11 years ago (1998-2000) on the entire geographical country of Mexico that includes all manner and shape and motive of homicide of Mexican aganst Mexicana is your reasoning that we are quite likely in danger of abduction and death as Americans when we drive 60 miles into Rocky Point --- really, dude?
This is the crux of your proof?
Once again.... have you any "Hard Facts" about why it is alarmingly, unusually, especially, noteworthily, legitimately dangerous to go to RP? Something that justifies the hysteria? You can't; just let it go; you got nothing but ghost stories and ridiculous logic. You're abandoning common sense and....(drumroll for our friend).... PERSPECTIVE!!!
La Huerita nailed you, friend; you scoff at us for anecdotal evidence - or rather, our lack of damaging anecdotal evidence (10,000's of people NOT experiencing any trouble or peril), and then you launch into a diatribe full of the silliest kind of anecdotal crap (spook Federale tales of 16 year olds with automatic weapons menacing women, burning cars (still..WTF?, and your favorite: bodies buried in the desert. You also mentioned something about ATV accidents.. which... yea - that applies to drug cartel danger - sure, make perfect sense).
You see Sub, the vast, vast majority of the recently murdered were either involved in the drug trade themselves, or were part of the forces (Army/ police/ judges/ officials) who are fighting them. If you’re planning to work for a drug cartel or join the Mexican Army, then by all means you should think twice about coming to Mexico. But even then, Rocky Point will not be on your map, regardless of whether you are good guy or bad. It's not a drug hub.
Here's some hard stuff for your consideration. Enjoy:
http://www.thetruthaboutmexico.com/2009/04/the-problem-with-non-natural-death-statistics/
http://www.thetruthaboutmexico.com/2009/03/traveling-to-usaam-i-crazy-please-help/
Last edited: May 30, 2009 at 10:59 PM
Jim said:The police emergency is 066. I asked a cop friend of mine about the supposed incident and he said that he had heard no such report. Now I think that he would know don't you? Sub, come on will ya? You're the glass half empty kind of guy huh? I know you like the shorter wait at the border but trying to scare people away is the medias job not yours. I once had a cooler stolen out of the back of my truck. It was parked in front of a bar at 1:30AM. Lions and tigers and bears, oh my.
You'd be surprised what cops know and what they don't, even more so in RP. I bet some murders they aren't supposed to know about, or even talk about. I'm not saying this murder rumor is true or not because I don't know, but I wouldn't assume you are getting all the facts from one cop buddy.
I'm sure my rantings here will have absolutely zero effect on tourism. Everyone here goes south of the border fairly regularly including myself. That doesn't mean I can't discuss the reality of what is going on in Mexico, so don't take your frustration with the Media out on me.
I had a coleman lantern stolen on Sandy Beach with 20 people sleeping around it. I miss that lantern.
I just read your second response. You're just continuing with the ninja argument, over and over and over again. - Prove to everyone that there AREN'T ninjas in the bushes (or that they MIGHT not be coming), or it's reasonable to believe they are out there.
Sub - what is up your wazoo about Rocky Point, man - or do you just hate to loose an argument this bad?
Sub - what is up your wazoo about Rocky Point, man - or do you just hate to loose an argument this bad?
Last edited: May 30, 2009 at 11:00 PM
Submarine said:You'd be surprised what cops know and what they don't, even more so in RP. I bet some murders they aren't supposed to know about, or even talk about.
OH MY GOD!!! Your logic is flawless! If there's no common sense proof of murder most fowl, then it may very well be because there is a cover up or because the cops don't know about it???? This is absurd.
Submarine said:That doesn't mean I can't discuss the reality of what is going on in Mexico,
No - see - the reality of what is going on in Rocky Point, or rather, what is NOT going on, is exactly what you are NOT discussing, Sub. You are discussing your conspiracy theories, suspicions and spook stories.
Still waiting for anything resembling common sense convincing proof that Americans are wise to be afriaid to come to Rocky Point and that the hysteria is justified. I remember what our original issue was.
Ninja phobia is not reason to be afraid.
And again - the violence MIGHT be coming because we are crossing a border town? You are a fear mongerer. Yes, yes you are.
And nice job trying to twist the murder stats into saying we are twice as likely to be killed once we cross the border - what a crock. Ever heard of putting stats into context, or the abuse of them?
Rocky Point is to Mexico City as Sedona is to Washington D.C.
The murder rate (varied as that is anyways) is not a constant.
Yeesh.
Last edited: May 30, 2009 at 11:01 PM
m4shawn said:Oh for crap's sake, Sub, you're hopeless. Just because you choose to ignore our point doesn't make it wrong. Some random Wikipedia statistic on UN murder rates from 11 years ago (1998-2000) on the entire geographical country of Mexico that includes all manner and shape and motive of homicide of Mexican aganst Mexicanas your "proof" that we are probably in danger of abduction and death as Americans when we drive 60 miles into Rocky Point --- really, dude? This is the crux of your proof? Actually, those statistics aren't random. They are Intentional Homicide Rates, not "non-natural death" statistics like your links. In plain english, this means someone killed someone else on purpose, not that they had an accident and died. Those rates are overall homicide rates, not just mexican on mexican. I never said you are 'probably in danger of abduction or homicide', what I said was that you are twice a likely to experience a violent crime in Mexico vs. the U.S.
Lets use an analogy that you are so fond of. If I told you that you could jump off a building in the U.S. and you would only have a 25% chance of dying, but if you jump off a building in Mexico your chance of dying is 50%, which building would you choose? Absurd of course but I hope you will get my point now.
Once again.... give me some "Hard Facts" about why it is alarmingly, unusually, especially, noteworthily, legitimately dangerous to go to RP. Something that justifies the hysteria. You can't; just let it go; you got nothing but ghost stories and ridiculous logic. You're abandoning common sense and....(drumroll for our friend).... PERSPECTIVE!!! The "hard facts" are, once again, that your statistical likelihood of experiencing a violent crime anywhere in Mexico are double that of in the U.S. This includes RP and if you agree that more violent crime has occurred near the border in the last few years you should agree that you are at a higher risk when travelling to RP than other parts of the country.
La Huerita nailed you, friend; you scoff at us for anecdotal evidence - or rather, our lack of damaging anecdotal evidence (10,000's of people NOT experiencing any trouble or peril), and then you launch into a diatribe full of the silliest kind of anecdotal crap (spook federale tales, burning cars, and your favorite: bodies buried in the desert. You also mentioned something about ATV accidents.. which... yea - that applies to drug cartel danger - sure, make perfect sense). There is plenty of damaging anecdotal evidence on this forum and even more lost on the old Rocky Point forum. I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear that the ATV accidents weren't related to drug cartels. I didn't think you would make that connection. I was merely talking about other general dangers about RP travel. I left out jellyfish stings, stingrays, and bad guacamole. ALL of which do not have anything to do with drug cartels. Well, maybe the guacamole, I can't be completely sure about that one.
You see Sub, the vast, vast majority of the recently murdred were either involved in the drug trade themselves, or were part of the forces (Army/ police/ judges/ officials) who are fighting them. If you’re planning to worki for a drug cartel or join the Mexican Army, then by all means you should think twice about coming to Mexico. But Rocky Point will not be on your map, regardless of whether you are good guy or bad. It's not a drug hub.
Not Yet it isn't. Hopefully not ever, but I never thought the condos would happen either. Jerry posted up a nice video about narcos raiding a jewelry store. They shot innocent customers including their own man. Are you seriously assuming that bullets somehow know how to avoid tourists?
I do like your assumption that the "vast, vast majority of the recently murdred" were all criminals. I want what you're smokin man. Since you've established that we can just make sweeping generalizations without any sort of facts I'll say that the 'vast, vast majority of condos in RP were bought with drug money". Hey, this is fun. "The vast, vast majority of condo owners are habitual users of Viagra". "The vast, vast majority of volleyball players are customers of The Black Widow". :wink:
Here's some hard stuff for your consideration. Enjoy:
http://www.thetruthaboutmexico.com/2009/04/the-problem-with-non-natural-death-statistics/
http://www.thetruthaboutmexico.com/2009/03/traveling-to-usaam-i-crazy-please-help/
Pretty useless blog although it is entertaining. He misses the point that fewer Americans travel to Mexico than compared to total non-natural deaths in the U.S. If you just looked at the non-natural death rate of people who traveled to Mexico you might have a more valid comparison, certainly a more interesting one. To make this clear to you, examine only Mexico travelers over time and see at what rate they died in the US vs Mexico of non-natural causes and see if there is a difference statistically. Most likely it would be higher in the U.S. because people spend more time there. Of course, this still doesn't nullify the intentional homicide statistic I quoted earlier.
m4shawn said:OH MY GOD!!! Your logic is flawless! If there's no common sense proof of murder most fowl, then it may very well be because there is a cover up or because the cops don't know about it???? This is absurd.
Not when you consider the rampant corruption in Mexican government, military, and police departments.
No - see - the reality of what is going on in Rocky Point, or rather, what is NOT going on, is exactly what you are NOT discussing, Sub. You are discussing your conspiracy theories, suspicions and spook stories.
It's comments like these that just dilute your argument.
Still waiting for anything resembling common sense convincing proof that Americans are wise to be afriaid to come to Rocky Point and that the hysteria is justified. I remember what our original issue was.
Ninja phobia is not reason to be afraid. That Americans should be afraid is your words. I say they should be aware of the risks. There is a difference.
And again - the violence MIGHT be coming because we are crossing a border town? You are a fear mongerer. Yes, yes you are.
Again, your statistical likelihood of experiencing a violent crime is double Mexico vs. the U.S. Knowing that most violent crime seems to be concentrated at the border, your risk is higher when travelling through border cities.
And nice job trying to twist the murder stats into saying we are twice as likely to be killed once we cross the border - what a crock. Ever heard of putting stats into context, or the abuse of them? Yeah, just saw a good example of abusing them on those links you provided. My links didn't have an agenda.
Rocky Point is to Mexico City as Sedona is to Washington D.C.
The murder rate (varied as that is anyways) is not a constant.
Yeesh.
Actually if you look at those statistics you will see that while the U.S. rate has remained fairly constant, Mexico's rate has dropped (this doesn't include the rather violent year of 2008). However, if you look at the last few years it has remained rather constant at double the U.S. rate. The years that Mexico's rate ballooned was when there was a lot going on in Chiapas. So you could argue that the drug/border violence has been rather constant.
Submarine said:The "hard facts" are, once again, that your statistical likelihood of experiencing a violent crime anywhere in Mexico are double that of in the U.S. This includes RP..
It includes Rocky Point, huh. Did you... read the relation as Sedona is to Wash D.C. -- that have any value to you at all? No?
So tell me, Statistical Wizard - you feel comfortable saying that RP is as perilous as say Juarez or Tijuana or areas in Sinaloa state deep into cartel traffic because it's a border area town?
You're full of it - I give up.
Ninjas. Ninja madness.
You blah blah blah and still.... we are back to square one: anything common sense and concrete -- about ROCKY POINT - to justify the hysteria and xenophobia many Americans are feeling about going there?
I mean besides personal, theoretical leaps from way too broad murder stats, campfire tales about buried bodies and your own ignoring the fact that we do not have any reliable stories about Americans being targeted as victims out of the thousands and thousands of visitors to RP each month?
Sure there is risk anywhere - what's the special point there??
The POINT IS --- IS THERE ANY SPECIAL REASON TO CLAIM THAT WE ARE AT ELEVATED RISK -- IS THE HYSTERIA JUSTIFIED?
You're being obtuse and it's obnoxious.
Submarine said:My links didn't have an agenda.
No - you just quoted them.. and then interprted them to try to serve your own agenda. You're a real DIY'er - congrats! P-s-sh.
"Again, your statistical likelihood of experiencing a violent crime is double Mexico vs. the U.S."
This is a misunderstanding about statistics. Just because something is descriptive and can mathematically be expressed as a percentage does not make it a useful predictive statistic. If you say ' the likelyhood is doubled' you are making a probability statement about that defined universe, "the entire country of Mexico". The problem is that the numbers are based on the entire country of Mexico and you cannot be in that universe, 'the entire country of Mexico'. The absolute number may be of interest descriptively, but expressed as a percentage it has no useful predictive value, particularly to any subset of the universe. In other words, this number tells us nothing about Penasco, or Sonoita, or Tijuana and acting on it may cause you to do the opposite of what you want to do.
If based on actual numbers reported the probability of being struck by a car in the city of Phoenix may be computed to be, say .00001 (one in 100,000). The probability of being struck by a vehicle while standing in the fast lane of I-10 in Phoenix at rush hour is likely 1.00 or 100%. While you cannot be in the 'universe' of the first example, you can in the second example, making it a useful predictive statistic.
This is a misunderstanding about statistics. Just because something is descriptive and can mathematically be expressed as a percentage does not make it a useful predictive statistic. If you say ' the likelyhood is doubled' you are making a probability statement about that defined universe, "the entire country of Mexico". The problem is that the numbers are based on the entire country of Mexico and you cannot be in that universe, 'the entire country of Mexico'. The absolute number may be of interest descriptively, but expressed as a percentage it has no useful predictive value, particularly to any subset of the universe. In other words, this number tells us nothing about Penasco, or Sonoita, or Tijuana and acting on it may cause you to do the opposite of what you want to do.
If based on actual numbers reported the probability of being struck by a car in the city of Phoenix may be computed to be, say .00001 (one in 100,000). The probability of being struck by a vehicle while standing in the fast lane of I-10 in Phoenix at rush hour is likely 1.00 or 100%. While you cannot be in the 'universe' of the first example, you can in the second example, making it a useful predictive statistic.
A man is walking in a park in NYC, tearing pieces of paper and throwing them around. Asked what he was doing he replied "I'm keeping the elephants away". The questioner replied " Thats ridiculous, there are no elephants around here" to which the response was "See, it works"
In the Phoenix version of that story the husband was carrying a 50 caliber which was required for Phoenix rogue elephants since paper, although sufficient for NYC was inadequate in the valley of the sun. Based on the forgoing discussion and precedents and anecdotes, what can we deduce from this observation? :razz:
I'm checking out of this one with one last comment. I have lived here full time for over a year and have been coming twice a month for 15 years. My cooler dissapearing was the worst thing that happened and it was due to my own stupidity. I now am a partner in a bar and regularly leave at 2-3AM. I see no violent gangs roaming the streets or fires burning out of control. I just drive home and go to bed. Just like I did when I lived in Tucson and just like I did when I lived in a town of 3000 people in Minnesota.
Jim - and despite your very relevant and repeated experience, Submarine would discard your testimony as meaningless anecdote. He would perhaps claim you are just lucky, insulated or just dumb and unobservant?
I call it common sense real info by someone with first hand exposure to the place we are discussing.
Great analysis of the Mexico murder rate issue, Roberto. Exactly.
Love the tissue paper elephant repelant illustration of meaningless circular logic.
Something else about those Mexico murder statistics Sub keeps lamenting (irrelevant as they are to a discussion about RP) - they are from 1998-2008, right?
So for the sake of the argument, let's pretend that they are revealing and relevant in some way - well... it looks like this murder rate has been fairly constant for 10 years now. So how then does this support the hysteria that has suddenly decended upon American travelers in the past 6 months?? What's different? What changed to trigger the panic? It sure wasn't a spike in the murder rate if we are to take Sub's stats as gospel proof - those have been the same high rate for a decade.
We all know what the spark was: the Arizona colleges taking it upon themselves to issue their alarmist warnings to their students in February - it wasn't even the State Dept travel warnings - even those have been standard fair for 3-4 years - nothing new. The Phoenix news media seized on the angle of the story - because fear sells - gets the attention of viewers. That was the gasoline. The dry brush was these times of fear, uncertainty and doubt about our economy by the public. Witness the mania for a week about the swine flu. Public mania and rumor were the high winds .... and we had the perfect storm to create hysteria, lumping RP in with the misunderstood context of Mexico's drug situation - creating what I believe to be no less than a hoax.
I'll repeat the theme again: perspective, common sense and the ABSENCE of incidents in RP = no need to be afraid. Submarine calls it "assessing the risk". Semantics. Bullsh*t.
I call it common sense real info by someone with first hand exposure to the place we are discussing.
Great analysis of the Mexico murder rate issue, Roberto. Exactly.
Love the tissue paper elephant repelant illustration of meaningless circular logic.
Something else about those Mexico murder statistics Sub keeps lamenting (irrelevant as they are to a discussion about RP) - they are from 1998-2008, right?
So for the sake of the argument, let's pretend that they are revealing and relevant in some way - well... it looks like this murder rate has been fairly constant for 10 years now. So how then does this support the hysteria that has suddenly decended upon American travelers in the past 6 months?? What's different? What changed to trigger the panic? It sure wasn't a spike in the murder rate if we are to take Sub's stats as gospel proof - those have been the same high rate for a decade.
We all know what the spark was: the Arizona colleges taking it upon themselves to issue their alarmist warnings to their students in February - it wasn't even the State Dept travel warnings - even those have been standard fair for 3-4 years - nothing new. The Phoenix news media seized on the angle of the story - because fear sells - gets the attention of viewers. That was the gasoline. The dry brush was these times of fear, uncertainty and doubt about our economy by the public. Witness the mania for a week about the swine flu. Public mania and rumor were the high winds .... and we had the perfect storm to create hysteria, lumping RP in with the misunderstood context of Mexico's drug situation - creating what I believe to be no less than a hoax.
I'll repeat the theme again: perspective, common sense and the ABSENCE of incidents in RP = no need to be afraid. Submarine calls it "assessing the risk". Semantics. Bullsh*t.
Last edited: May 31, 2009 at 6:19 PM
Sub the part time troll
M4, Sub is always looking for a chain to pull, He's just breaking you in.
M4, Sub is always looking for a chain to pull, He's just breaking you in.
What chain?
Sub, they just might be a pile of rocks to you, and they are not made of Coral, but they are still reefs... here :fish: :fish: :lol:
Kenny
Sub, they just might be a pile of rocks to you, and they are not made of Coral, but they are still reefs... here :fish: :fish: :lol:
Kenny
:wink: Thanks for the insider tip perro... I'll try to keep my undies untwisted when he and I engage in debate again; I assume we will.
This particular subject is just one in which I am very impassioned in my opinion. I despise the level of madness, the degree of the ignorance and the damage to the RP economy it does, not to memtion my personal project with the volleyball tournament. It's unbelievable.
This particular subject is just one in which I am very impassioned in my opinion. I despise the level of madness, the degree of the ignorance and the damage to the RP economy it does, not to memtion my personal project with the volleyball tournament. It's unbelievable.
Shawn,
Just tell Sub you think a Chevy Duramax could out pull his sorry-ass Ford and call it even.
<me likes poking snakes with sticks! Uh-huh!>
Just tell Sub you think a Chevy Duramax could out pull his sorry-ass Ford and call it even.
<me likes poking snakes with sticks! Uh-huh!>
This thread sure got hi-jacked. Did anyone confirm if this was true?
Submarine said:You'd be surprised what cops know and what they don't, even more so in RP. I bet some murders they aren't supposed to know about, or even talk about. I'm not saying this murder rumor is true or not because I don't know, but I wouldn't assume you are getting all the facts from one cop buddy.
Soooo....the cops don't know the real truth, yours truly didn't report it, in www.rockypointnewsonline.com because there was absolutely not a hint of it happening...and yet an American in the States heard of it and is warning people? Geez...there are UFO and Elvis sightings, too.
Sub, no one can prove it DIDN'T happen...but there is absolutely no indication that it did.
Rosie
reportjones said:This thread sure got hi-jacked. Did anyone confirm if this was true?
No, it isn't true.
Rosie
Thank you Rosy. Finally, the voice of reason. And Shawn, I love your ninja scenario.
I have been on the sites for a couple of years and some people are just not happy with there own life, and try to make everyone else's hell. Don't waste your time with this. There is so much more than waste your time on this. Leigh
Consider the source!!!
So somehow having a spirited discussion is 'making other people's lives hell'... Perhaps "Leigh" would like to spring for some group counselling for us all so we can cope, or perhaps suggest other refuges from our pain.
I think we are all adults here and although M4shawn has gone a little out of bounds maybe he's taken a deep breath on my brief hiatus.
I disagree with Bob's interpretation of the statistics I presented (which are based on years 2000-2008 BTW). My point is that, based on the historical statistics, Mexico is twice as dangerous as the U.S. on average, no matter where you are. Because the murder rate is based on population as a whole, it gives you a more accurate average rate vs. any hotspot. His freeway scenario seems flawed to me as it places you in a situation where you can almost guarantee a 'hit', sort of like if you were standing in the middle of a drug dealer gun battle. But it's his interpretation so more power to him.
I read an interesting story about a town in southern mexico besieged by drug cartels. You'll forgive me for not having the name handy but I left it at home. What was interesting was that the story talked about how the violence there never made the news but one killing in Cancun or Mazatlan would be all over the international wire. It made me think about what I'm really getting to about drug violence in Mexico, and a point I think you all are ignoring.
Drug violence is rampant in the border cities and drug corridors. Mexico is a big country and it's impossible for the police or even the army to rid the country of the drug cartels as long as drugs are illegal in the U.S. and Mexico is a way to get it here. If the Mexican government succeeds in driving out the drug cartels in one area, they will only seek another corridor. We have seen a lot of changes in Rocky Point: a new coastal highway, larger airport, talk of larger marinas and pipelines for oil etc. All of which would be very tempting for drug cartels seeking a new corridor.
I don't see anything that can stop this from happening but ignoring a problem never solved anything. It's time to wake up to what will (soon?) be Rocky Point's reality.
I think we are all adults here and although M4shawn has gone a little out of bounds maybe he's taken a deep breath on my brief hiatus.
I disagree with Bob's interpretation of the statistics I presented (which are based on years 2000-2008 BTW). My point is that, based on the historical statistics, Mexico is twice as dangerous as the U.S. on average, no matter where you are. Because the murder rate is based on population as a whole, it gives you a more accurate average rate vs. any hotspot. His freeway scenario seems flawed to me as it places you in a situation where you can almost guarantee a 'hit', sort of like if you were standing in the middle of a drug dealer gun battle. But it's his interpretation so more power to him.
I read an interesting story about a town in southern mexico besieged by drug cartels. You'll forgive me for not having the name handy but I left it at home. What was interesting was that the story talked about how the violence there never made the news but one killing in Cancun or Mazatlan would be all over the international wire. It made me think about what I'm really getting to about drug violence in Mexico, and a point I think you all are ignoring.
Drug violence is rampant in the border cities and drug corridors. Mexico is a big country and it's impossible for the police or even the army to rid the country of the drug cartels as long as drugs are illegal in the U.S. and Mexico is a way to get it here. If the Mexican government succeeds in driving out the drug cartels in one area, they will only seek another corridor. We have seen a lot of changes in Rocky Point: a new coastal highway, larger airport, talk of larger marinas and pipelines for oil etc. All of which would be very tempting for drug cartels seeking a new corridor.
I don't see anything that can stop this from happening but ignoring a problem never solved anything. It's time to wake up to what will (soon?) be Rocky Point's reality.
PitiquitoRosy said:Soooo....the cops don't know the real truth, yours truly didn't report it, in www.rockypointnewsonline.com because there was absolutely not a hint of it happening...and yet an American in the States heard of it and is warning people? Geez...there are UFO and Elvis sightings, too.
Sub, no one can prove it DIDN'T happen...but there is absolutely no indication that it did.
Rosie
Show me where I stated, unequivocally, that the murders rumored at the beginning of this thread were a fact.
Stuart said:Shawn,
Just tell Sub you think a Chevy Duramax could out pull his sorry-ass Ford and call it even.
<me likes poking snakes with sticks! Uh-huh!>
Hey you drive the same F250 I do! Wait, I mean Prius. Yup, that's it a Prius.
Never been a better time in the country to drive a Ford eh Stuart? And now Hummer is being sold to the Chinese? I'll bring the kung pao to the next rally.
Monday, December 3, 2007
Violent Crime Threatens Baja California, Mexico Tourism
By Nancy Conroy
A spate of recent reports in the US press about carjackings, highway robberies and violent crime in Baja California, Mexico is threatening to destroy tourism. Over Thanksgiving weekend, few visitors arrived in Baja California and major tourist destinations were empty. Negative reports about Baja California crime are all over the Internet, with most people saying that they are sick of everything about Mexico and will never travel there again.
Tourism officials are currently conducting emergency meetings, and they are expected to make a public announcement within a week. But it is simple to predict what the officials are going to say. They will claim that the crime wave was a brief aberration, measures have been taken, and the problem has now been solved.
Believe that story at your peril.
Although the current crime wave has only now been reported by the US press, actually these violent attacks on tourists have been occurring at least since last summer. The reports currently coming out in San Diego are not necessarily new incidents. Some of them happened last August or September, when the last wave of carjackings hit the Baja California toll roads. The problem settled down in September and October, and then started up again with a vengeance in November.
There was also a rash of attacks and carjackings in August of 2006, but that one was covered up more effectively and most people have forgotten about it. But, “Baja 1000” car racers have not forgotten the murder of Duane Curtis on a lonely beach last year during the 2006 race. That memory is probably what prompted them to arrive late at the race this year, leave early, and report all crimes to the US press.
Again, these incidents are nothing new, but the tourists and sportsmen are fed up with them and finally going public.
Covering up incidents of crime against American tourists has long been a basic goal for Baja California officials and real estate leaders. When a Baja California tourism e-newsletter recently reprinted one of the crime articles, real estate and tourism officials sent emails to the webmaster arguing that circulating such information was an act of “negativity.” The Gringo Gazette North, an English language newspaper in Baja California, first reported the carjacking problems last September and received aggressive criticism for doing so. Leaders and officials prefer to deny reports, ignore the truth, and lean on the local media to kill the story. They do nothing about the problem until the US press starts to report it.
Now the officials are in full PR and damage control mode. They will trot out an old script that they have read to the US press before, saying that there will now be a safe, “no-shakedown” corridor in the tourist zone. That story is an old yarn that sounds good in press announcements, but has never actually been implemented. They will also say that the crime wave was a temporary phenomenon associated with the change in government administration, a claim that is disproved by the actual dates of the crimes. They will then dramatically unveil new anti-crime initiatives, measures that have been tried before and have never worked in the past. The idea is to convince the American newspapers to report that safety programs are in place, the problem is solved, and Baja California is now safe for tourists.
The Baja California officials genuinely would like to believe their own claims, but in reality crime is out of their control. The carjackings are not being committed by ordinary criminals, the perpetrators are armed commando squads affiliated with drug cartels. Local, state and federal authorities do not have adequate resources to fight the “Men in Black.” The only action that has ever successfully decreased Baja California crime is federal intervention by the Mexican military, and a tourism protection initiative proposed by business leaders is not going to solve the problem.
In the past, drug crime in Baja California did not affect tourists or the American community as much. Previously, the shootings and kidnappings seemed to be directed at police or drug dealers, and Americans were largely unaffected.
Now however, the new carjacking methodology does specifically target Americans, especially naive tourists. An unmarked vehicle, usually a pick up or SUV, flashes police lights and sirens at a car with California plates driving on the toll road. Believing that the car is a police cruiser, the American pulls over to the side of the road and is attacked by armed commandos. Anyone with a sharp eye can learn to identify these vehicles with the lights and sirens, and will soon realize that many of these cars roam the streets, sometimes in caravans. This is a new phenomenon that has emerged over the last year, one that represents a serious threat to American tourists as well as Mexico’s important tourism industry.
——————————
Nancy Conroy is the Publisher of northern Baja California’s biweekly Gringo Gazette North. She can be reached via e-mail at [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0000ff]nancy@gringogazettenorth.com[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR].
Link to article: http://mexidata.info/id1634.html
Don't worry, nothing like this could ever happen in Rocky Point.....or could it?
SO that's the reason for those "Hassle free" zone signs?!?
I'm sure the local policia with all their shiny new Dodge trucks and urban camo are better equipped than their Baja counterparts to repel any criminal organization. The two highway patrolmen are more than enough to handle the 60 miles from Sonoyta to RP.
I feel safer already!
Violent Crime Threatens Baja California, Mexico Tourism
By Nancy Conroy
A spate of recent reports in the US press about carjackings, highway robberies and violent crime in Baja California, Mexico is threatening to destroy tourism. Over Thanksgiving weekend, few visitors arrived in Baja California and major tourist destinations were empty. Negative reports about Baja California crime are all over the Internet, with most people saying that they are sick of everything about Mexico and will never travel there again.
Tourism officials are currently conducting emergency meetings, and they are expected to make a public announcement within a week. But it is simple to predict what the officials are going to say. They will claim that the crime wave was a brief aberration, measures have been taken, and the problem has now been solved.
Believe that story at your peril.
Although the current crime wave has only now been reported by the US press, actually these violent attacks on tourists have been occurring at least since last summer. The reports currently coming out in San Diego are not necessarily new incidents. Some of them happened last August or September, when the last wave of carjackings hit the Baja California toll roads. The problem settled down in September and October, and then started up again with a vengeance in November.
There was also a rash of attacks and carjackings in August of 2006, but that one was covered up more effectively and most people have forgotten about it. But, “Baja 1000” car racers have not forgotten the murder of Duane Curtis on a lonely beach last year during the 2006 race. That memory is probably what prompted them to arrive late at the race this year, leave early, and report all crimes to the US press.
Again, these incidents are nothing new, but the tourists and sportsmen are fed up with them and finally going public.
Covering up incidents of crime against American tourists has long been a basic goal for Baja California officials and real estate leaders. When a Baja California tourism e-newsletter recently reprinted one of the crime articles, real estate and tourism officials sent emails to the webmaster arguing that circulating such information was an act of “negativity.” The Gringo Gazette North, an English language newspaper in Baja California, first reported the carjacking problems last September and received aggressive criticism for doing so. Leaders and officials prefer to deny reports, ignore the truth, and lean on the local media to kill the story. They do nothing about the problem until the US press starts to report it.
Now the officials are in full PR and damage control mode. They will trot out an old script that they have read to the US press before, saying that there will now be a safe, “no-shakedown” corridor in the tourist zone. That story is an old yarn that sounds good in press announcements, but has never actually been implemented. They will also say that the crime wave was a temporary phenomenon associated with the change in government administration, a claim that is disproved by the actual dates of the crimes. They will then dramatically unveil new anti-crime initiatives, measures that have been tried before and have never worked in the past. The idea is to convince the American newspapers to report that safety programs are in place, the problem is solved, and Baja California is now safe for tourists.
The Baja California officials genuinely would like to believe their own claims, but in reality crime is out of their control. The carjackings are not being committed by ordinary criminals, the perpetrators are armed commando squads affiliated with drug cartels. Local, state and federal authorities do not have adequate resources to fight the “Men in Black.” The only action that has ever successfully decreased Baja California crime is federal intervention by the Mexican military, and a tourism protection initiative proposed by business leaders is not going to solve the problem.
In the past, drug crime in Baja California did not affect tourists or the American community as much. Previously, the shootings and kidnappings seemed to be directed at police or drug dealers, and Americans were largely unaffected.
Now however, the new carjacking methodology does specifically target Americans, especially naive tourists. An unmarked vehicle, usually a pick up or SUV, flashes police lights and sirens at a car with California plates driving on the toll road. Believing that the car is a police cruiser, the American pulls over to the side of the road and is attacked by armed commandos. Anyone with a sharp eye can learn to identify these vehicles with the lights and sirens, and will soon realize that many of these cars roam the streets, sometimes in caravans. This is a new phenomenon that has emerged over the last year, one that represents a serious threat to American tourists as well as Mexico’s important tourism industry.
——————————
Nancy Conroy is the Publisher of northern Baja California’s biweekly Gringo Gazette North. She can be reached via e-mail at [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0000ff]nancy@gringogazettenorth.com[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR].
Link to article: http://mexidata.info/id1634.html
Don't worry, nothing like this could ever happen in Rocky Point.....or could it?
SO that's the reason for those "Hassle free" zone signs?!?
I'm sure the local policia with all their shiny new Dodge trucks and urban camo are better equipped than their Baja counterparts to repel any criminal organization. The two highway patrolmen are more than enough to handle the 60 miles from Sonoyta to RP.
I feel safer already!
Last edited: Jun 4, 2009 at 3:19 AM
From the CIA Factbook on Mexico. That's a lot of yey-yo!
major drug-producing nation; cultivation of opium poppy in 2007 rose to 6,900 hectares yielding a potential production of 18 metric tons of pure heroin, or 50 metric tons of "black tar" heroin, the dominant form of Mexican heroin in the western United States; marijuana cultivation increased to 8,900 hectares in 2007 and yielded a potential production of 15,800 metric tons; government conducts the largest independent illicit-crop eradication program in the world; continues as the primary transshipment country for US-bound cocaine from South America, with an estimated 90% of annual cocaine movements toward the US stopping in Mexico; major drug syndicates control the majority of drug trafficking throughout the country; producer and distributor of ecstasy; significant money-laundering center; major supplier of heroin and largest foreign supplier of marijuana and methamphetamine to the US market (2007)
This page was last updated on 14 May 2009
Bet that coastal highway is looking mighty convenient.
Illicit drugs:
major drug-producing nation; cultivation of opium poppy in 2007 rose to 6,900 hectares yielding a potential production of 18 metric tons of pure heroin, or 50 metric tons of "black tar" heroin, the dominant form of Mexican heroin in the western United States; marijuana cultivation increased to 8,900 hectares in 2007 and yielded a potential production of 15,800 metric tons; government conducts the largest independent illicit-crop eradication program in the world; continues as the primary transshipment country for US-bound cocaine from South America, with an estimated 90% of annual cocaine movements toward the US stopping in Mexico; major drug syndicates control the majority of drug trafficking throughout the country; producer and distributor of ecstasy; significant money-laundering center; major supplier of heroin and largest foreign supplier of marijuana and methamphetamine to the US market (2007)
This page was last updated on 14 May 2009
Bet that coastal highway is looking mighty convenient.
Excerpts from: http://www.state.gov/p/inl/rls/nrcrpt/2005/vol1/html/42364.htm
II. Status of Country
As much as 90 percent of the cocaine sold in the U.S. is smuggled through Mexican territory from South America. Mexico is also one of the largest producers of marijuana and heroin consumed in the U.S. Most cocaine smuggled through Mexico arrives by maritime means, including commercial shipping, with ocean vessels moving large quantities along the eastern Pacific and through the Gulf of California, and fishing vessels and go-fast boats operating in the Pacific between the northern coast of South America and the southern coast of Mexico. While the Pacific coast of Mexico remained the preferred smuggling route for Andean cocaine, there is increased trafficking through the western Caribbean—possibly a response to the success of Mexican and regional interdiction operations. In addition, traffickers used air cargo, couriers, and mail parcels through Mexico and Central America as alternate smuggling routes.
--------
But Sonora and Rocky Point will somehow remain immune?
--------
Drug Flow and Transit. Cocaine flow to the United States became more concentrated through Mexico in 2004. Approximately ninety percent of South American cocaine sold in U.S. markets passed through Mexico territory. Mexico was also a major producer and transit zone for marijuana, heroin, and methamphetamine destined for the U.S. Methamphetamine traffic was concentrated in Mexican/U.S. border area and drug groups established methamphetamine laboratories in northwestern Mexico, with production for exported to the U.S. Mexican criminal organizations dominated drug trafficking operations in the U.S., controlling most of the primary distribution centers. U.S. and Mexican authorities have cooperated closely to dismantle these operations on both sides of the border.
With the sharp increase in Mexican domestic drug abuse, traffickers expanded operations into major Mexican cities, along Mexico's northern border, and in major tourist zones to complement smuggling to the United States and diversify their markets
-----------
If we have learned anything from the Drug War it should be when you cut off one head of the snake, another rises to take it's place. Rocky Point, with all the changes it has gone through, is highly likely to be a future corridor if it isn't being exploited already. What will produce the violence is when the various cartels fight among themselves for the 'right' to the corridor. I'm sure they'll settle it with a vicious game of volleyball though!
II. Status of Country
As much as 90 percent of the cocaine sold in the U.S. is smuggled through Mexican territory from South America. Mexico is also one of the largest producers of marijuana and heroin consumed in the U.S. Most cocaine smuggled through Mexico arrives by maritime means, including commercial shipping, with ocean vessels moving large quantities along the eastern Pacific and through the Gulf of California, and fishing vessels and go-fast boats operating in the Pacific between the northern coast of South America and the southern coast of Mexico. While the Pacific coast of Mexico remained the preferred smuggling route for Andean cocaine, there is increased trafficking through the western Caribbean—possibly a response to the success of Mexican and regional interdiction operations. In addition, traffickers used air cargo, couriers, and mail parcels through Mexico and Central America as alternate smuggling routes.
--------
But Sonora and Rocky Point will somehow remain immune?
--------
Drug Flow and Transit. Cocaine flow to the United States became more concentrated through Mexico in 2004. Approximately ninety percent of South American cocaine sold in U.S. markets passed through Mexico territory. Mexico was also a major producer and transit zone for marijuana, heroin, and methamphetamine destined for the U.S. Methamphetamine traffic was concentrated in Mexican/U.S. border area and drug groups established methamphetamine laboratories in northwestern Mexico, with production for exported to the U.S. Mexican criminal organizations dominated drug trafficking operations in the U.S., controlling most of the primary distribution centers. U.S. and Mexican authorities have cooperated closely to dismantle these operations on both sides of the border.
With the sharp increase in Mexican domestic drug abuse, traffickers expanded operations into major Mexican cities, along Mexico's northern border, and in major tourist zones to complement smuggling to the United States and diversify their markets
-----------
If we have learned anything from the Drug War it should be when you cut off one head of the snake, another rises to take it's place. Rocky Point, with all the changes it has gone through, is highly likely to be a future corridor if it isn't being exploited already. What will produce the violence is when the various cartels fight among themselves for the 'right' to the corridor. I'm sure they'll settle it with a vicious game of volleyball though!
http://forums.viperclub.org/arizona/623748-puerto-penasco.html
Some of you better sign up and start posting over there right now! Tourists are being deferred to Florida as we speak!
Some of you better sign up and start posting over there right now! Tourists are being deferred to Florida as we speak!
Kenny said:Sub, they just might be a pile of rocks to you, and they are not made of Coral, but they are still reefs... here
Kenny
F you and your "reefs"! :lol: Those are more shoals or mounds, hardly worthy of calling a "reef". A reef would be composed of something organic, or living at one time, not those miserable pile of rocks! :fish: :fish:
I can see where it would ruin the Sandy Beach mystique though. People aren't going to pay Scottsdale prices for shrimp at a restaurant called "The Shoal". Guess I'm just prejudiced though from seeing some of the best and most vibrant coral reefs close up. I'll try to refrain! 8-)
for a group of macho car guys they sure seem to be well....chickens
ooh stranger danger,the mexicans will kill us all,,,black man in the white house.....
Must be hard work spending so much time living it fear!
ooh stranger danger,the mexicans will kill us all,,,black man in the white house.....
Must be hard work spending so much time living it fear!
Submarine said:
I disagree with Bob's interpretation of the statistics I presented....But it's his interpretation so more power to him.
Hahaha! Bob's "interpretation" of those stats? Hahaha! OK Sub - later I'll give my "interpretation" of the facts that the earth is round or that Rocky Point isn't a vampire haven and you can continue to blah-blah-blah "dispute" it. Good Lord, brother.... this is just a parody of a debate. Wow.
Submarine said:It's time to wake up to what will (soon?) be Rocky Point's reality.
That's great - put that on a t-shirt, Chicken Little. Ninjas......
I thought you had finally got what I and others were saying, Sub. (Sigh.....) 7 posts in your return raid... And I'm that one that is "out of bounds" and needs to "take a deep breath"?
You're funny.
You know, M4shawn, you might revisit another word "Objectivity" as you have lost yours. You see to have become irrationaly emotional over this whole debate.
Interestingly enough, if I were given a choice of your 'ninjas' and the drug cartels of today, I would pick ninjas hands down. While there is some debate that Ninjas even existed, the consensus seems to be that they practiced bushido which in that time period involved loyalty to their master and purpose, compassion for lower classes (as probably most of us here would be seen as today), honor, and even politeness. Maybe you'd like to change it to pirates or something?
Well if you and Bob want to disregard statistics based on your own reality be my guest. The groups that compiles those statistics didn't do so on the basis that they are worthless for comparison. What would be the point? In fact, the figures might be slightly skewed downward in other countries because of how intentional homicides are reported and codified. Not every country has adopted uniform standards of reporting violent crime as the FBI has here. However, I doubt that most of Mexico's rather horrific violence of the last few years hasn't made it into the "intentional homicide" category. Hard to argue someone's head being cut off and put on display wasn't intentional! Maybe an unusual form of seppuku in your world??:-P
Interestingly enough, if I were given a choice of your 'ninjas' and the drug cartels of today, I would pick ninjas hands down. While there is some debate that Ninjas even existed, the consensus seems to be that they practiced bushido which in that time period involved loyalty to their master and purpose, compassion for lower classes (as probably most of us here would be seen as today), honor, and even politeness. Maybe you'd like to change it to pirates or something?
Well if you and Bob want to disregard statistics based on your own reality be my guest. The groups that compiles those statistics didn't do so on the basis that they are worthless for comparison. What would be the point? In fact, the figures might be slightly skewed downward in other countries because of how intentional homicides are reported and codified. Not every country has adopted uniform standards of reporting violent crime as the FBI has here. However, I doubt that most of Mexico's rather horrific violence of the last few years hasn't made it into the "intentional homicide" category. Hard to argue someone's head being cut off and put on display wasn't intentional! Maybe an unusual form of seppuku in your world??:-P
jerry said:for a group of macho car guys they sure seem to be well....chickens
ooh stranger danger,the mexicans will kill us all,,,black man in the white house.....
Must be hard work spending so much time living it fear!
"It was once said that a black man would be President when pigs fly. Well Behold! 100 days into his Presidency, here it is, a swine flu!"
That forum was pretty entertaining but it seems to be the view held by most American's today doesn't it? I'd like to see some tourism numbers.
Submarine said:"
That forum was pretty entertaining but it seems to be the view held by most American's today doesn't it?
Oh, c'mon. It's a Dodge Viper forum! I put their credibility about travel to Mexico right up there with a Porche or Corvette forum. They are compensating for something, but due to the "family" nature of our little forum here, I'm not going into detail. (tiny penis) :lol::lol::lol:
But yes, Sub. I'll give you credit, that thread *is* a perfect example of the media brainwashing that has taken place on the general public. Mexico is a bad place. I'm a sheep... baaah... baaah... baaah. Obama is the Savior and will bring us change. Baaaah. The Muslims are just "misunderstood" and are really our friends. Baaah... baaah. Iran has a legitimate need for nuclear power. Baaah. Chicken little was right, the sky is falling and species are dying and it's all because you and I are evil and drive great big honkin' trucks that are superheating the planet and killing everything... baaah... baaah. Baaah???
I'll add this - as I lay in bed watching the Fox 10 News here in Phoenix last night, I turned to the wife and said "Damn! I'm GLAD I'm going to Mexico this weekend! I'll feel safer!" Exploding DPS cars, several different murders, some dickhead raping a passed out girl and posting it on his website, Mesa cops beating (okay, some "overzealous manhandling") of a guy in handcuffs, while other Mesa cops flushed a miscarried fetus down the toilet, a homeless mentard spreading a box of feces around on the light rail... the list just seemed to go on and on of some pretty damned horrific stuff.
30 miles out on the boat, it's just me, the dolphins, the fishies, and a cold Pacifico. I'm may not come back this time.
<cue Forum Jukebox... loading Styx "Come Sail Away"> :boat:
Submarine said:You know, M4shawn, you might revisit another word "Objectivity" as you have lost yours. You see to have become irrationaly emotional over this whole debate.
Just saying it doesn't make it true, Sub, I really :-D do not know where you are coming from here. Impugning the stability of your adversary is an old standby tactic that of itself is hollow. I would call your accusation that I suffer a lack of objectivity an odd one when both our posts are read.
Submarine said:Interestingly enough, if I were given a choice of your 'ninjas' and the drug cartels of today, I would pick ninjas hands down. While there is some debate that Ninjas even existed, the consensus seems to be that they practiced bushido which in that time period involved loyalty to their master and purpose, compassion for lower classes (as probably most of us here would be seen as today), honor, and even politeness. Maybe you'd like to change it to pirates or something?
Huh???? Are you -- derrr... what?
Submarine said:Well if you and Bob want to disregard statistics based on your own reality be my guest.
Once again: hahahaha! Mine and Bob's own reality? I think Bob took the time to break this down pretty damn well a few posts back; if you're the only one who still can't understand what he explained and how these stats are meaningless in a discussion about any new and special danger with regard to border violence specific to RP..... then I really think this is like debating the color of a sunset with a blind man.
Submarine said:The groups that compiles those statistics didn't do so on the basis that they are worthless for comparison. What would be the point?
Sub....(god) no one challenged their worth when utilized contextually correctly - we didn't try to sully the compilation nor the group that did it - we're decrying YOU and your attempt to co-opt them as somehow proving your point that urban myth murders may be going on all around RP and we don't know it and as such, the danger in RP is probably valid as are the feelings of fear about going there.
Really man, obfuscating the original point is also a bad tactic. I'm pretty much done debating tangential crap on these irrelevant detours. Go ahead and try to bury me with piles of links, stats, articles and other ancillary grenades, man.
It keeps coming back to the lurking ninja concept - recheck Rosy's post - she's a wise one.
Last edited: Jun 4, 2009 at 12:31 PM
Submarine said:Show me where I stated, unequivocally, that the murders rumored at the beginning of this thread were a fact.
Back up, Bud! I responded to the thread, not to you. Take your defensiveness to someone who gives a crap about the conclusions you want to ram down other people's throats. And by the way, posting of articles verbatim is tedious. On the internet articles can be found to make any argument under the sun. This is a lively intelligent group and you should be able to hold your own without beating anyone over the head with articles you think support your view of where Mexico is headed unless more people listen to you.
Submarine said:If we have learned anything from the Drug War it should be when you cut off one head of the snake, another rises to take it's place. Rocky Point, with all the changes it has gone through, is highly likely to be a future corridor if it isn't being exploited already. What will produce the violence is when the various cartels fight among themselves for the 'right' to the corridor. I'm sure they'll settle it with a vicious game of volleyball though!
A corridor is a way to get from one place to another. Rocky Point is not convenient as a drug trafficking corridor. So you are wrong here. The city, like all cities has a drug problem with users and abusers as well as pushers. There will be occasions of pushers fighting for turf, but these aren't cartels and they aren't even important in the scheme of things. If someone is going to run drugs from the south to the north, Caborca to Sonoyta or Nogales is the fastest route. Why the hell come to Penasco? Look, I think what officials do is going to be integral to future development as well as safety and security in the region, but I have a problem with the fatalistic declarations you make. Perhaps because I'm more involved. Many Americans have trouble differentiating random violence with cartel-related activity. There is a huge difference. What is happening in Baja is not being done by the cartels. Those are thugs. Highway pirates. Everyday criminals, despite their viciousness. Cartels is a whole other ballgame. Volleyball, anyone?
Cheers to you Rosy!!
PitiquitoRosy said:... but I have a problem with the fatalistic declarations you make.
Amen, Rosy, amen. It's patently wrong to impugn PP, much less plant some conjured fatal diagnosis on it based on nothing but "what ifs" and arbitrary speculations. It's glib. Oh hell, it's plain dumb.
PitiquitoRosy said:A corridor is a way to get from one place to another. Rocky Point is not convenient as a drug trafficking corridor. So you are wrong here. The city, like all cities has a drug problem with users and abusers as well as pushers. There will be occasions of pushers fighting for turf, but these aren't cartels and they aren't even important in the scheme of things. If someone is going to run drugs from the south to the north, Caborca to Sonoyta or Nogales is the fastest route. Why the hell come to Penasco? Look, I think what officials do is going to be integral to future development as well as safety and security in the region, but I have a problem with the fatalistic declarations you make. Perhaps because I'm more involved. Many Americans have trouble differentiating random violence with cartel-related activity. There is a huge difference. What is happening in Baja is not being done by the cartels. Those are thugs. Highway pirates. Everyday criminals, despite their viciousness. Cartels is a whole other ballgame. Volleyball, anyone?
I think the port would look fairly inviting, including any other marinas that may come to fruition, and where they brought the transformers a year or so ago. . We didn't seem to have any trouble offloading those huge transformers so a couple of large loads of drugs would be no problem at all. Get some speedboats to run some up the coast into smaller marinas, run some up to the Mayan airport and fly it north. Get some onto vehicles, RV's even and send some up the new Coastal highway, more up 8, some across to Sassabe or Nogales. Maybe they'll build better ramps and cross the border barricade. If these drug dealers put half their efforts into legitimate businesses they might be even more successful and live longer.
Maybe the Baja crimes are cartel related, maybe not but they are definitely more organized than you typical tourist crimes. Maybe minor league to you but I doubt the victims feel any consolation.
m4shawn said:Just saying it doesn't make it true, Sub, I really :-D do not know where you are coming from here. Impugning the stability of your adversary is an old standby tactic that of itself is hollow. I would call your accusation that I suffer a lack of objectivity an odd one when both our posts are read.
Huh???? Are you -- derrr... what?
Once again: hahahaha! Mine and Bob's own reality? I think Bob took the time to break this down pretty damn well a few posts back; if you're the only one who still can't understand what he explained and how these stats are meaningless in a discussion about any new and special danger with regard to border violence specific to RP..... then I really think this is like debating the color of a sunset with a blind man.
Sub....(god) no one challenged their worth when utilized contextually correctly - we didn't try to sully the compilation nor the group that did it - we're decrying YOU and your attempt to co-opt them as somehow proving your point that urban myth murders may be going on all around RP and we don't know it and as such, the danger in RP is probably valid as are the feelings of fear about going there.
Really man, obfuscating the original point is also a bad tactic. I'm pretty much done debating tangential crap on these irrelevant detours. Go ahead and try to bury me with piles of links, stats, articles and other ancillary grenades, man.
It keeps coming back to the lurking ninja concept - recheck Rosy's post - she's a wise one.
You were saying something about impugning your adversary being hollow? You've been doing that since your first post. Pot meet Kettle!
PitiquitoRosy said:Back up, Bud! I responded to the thread, not to you. Take your defensiveness to someone who gives a crap about the conclusions you want to ram down other people's throats. And by the way, posting of articles verbatim is tedious. On the internet articles can be found to make any argument under the sun. This is a lively intelligent group and you should be able to hold your own without beating anyone over the head with articles you think support your view of where Mexico is headed unless more people listen to you.
Well why quote me at the beginning of that post then? The reason I quote you here is so that it is clear what I am responding to. I'm not defensive at all, but if you are going to attribute something to me at least have it be something I posted.
I'm holding my own just fine, and really, I don't even need to try. The entire U.S. Media seems to be behind the point of view I have espoused here (note to the 'intelligent', read that carefully). Also, the majority of the public seem to be accepting that view as witnessed by the epic downturn in tourism to RP and Mexico in general. Also, no one here, intelligent or not, seems to be able to express any coherent argument against the popular view that "MEXICO IS DANGEROUS!".
What are we up to here, 7 pages now? You're preaching to the converted, no one is going to stay home based on what I or anyone else says here.
So if you want tourism to pick up, the "Mexico is Safe" crowd needs to come up with a better argument. I've told people for years that Mexico is as safe as you want it to be be but who do you think people believe?
As for me, I'll continue to enjoy the low rates that this 'violence' hysteria has produced. Thanks everyone!
I said impugning the stability of you adversary is bad juju - as in bringing their mental capacity into question. If you're gonna accuse someone of being irrational or unobjective you should accompany it immediately and clearly with your reasoning --- if you just throw it at me as a categorical barb.. then it's hollow. I've impugned your reasoning and the haphazard nature of your logic chain and the glibness of your fatalistic attitude - not your character or intelligence. You're way overreaching.
Look Sub, out of respect for the other posters and the forum overall I'm not going to tangle with you on this sideshow stuff about statistics once someone like Bob has unquestionably addressed it and dismantled it - it's a stupid "nuh uh".... "uh huh" volley otherwise.
This whole tussle began when I called you out on OVER stating the risk factors in your reply /advice to a guy who genuinely wanted to know if he was foolishly putting his family in danger by traveling into PP.
"OVER" being the operative part of my objection to your words.
Neither I nor anyone else was trying to sell PP as a fantasy adventureland charmed from the everyday threats of any town.
We simply call foul on your strange and OVER stated assertions that there is some special threat that MERITS fear of the place.
You've been alternately vague, story-telling, supportive of our view, and just argumentative - I'm not even sure what your point is anymore - care to start over?
I stand by my original caling out of your OVERstatements, and even after all this fooforaw you've kicked up you've not presented one real comon sense reason to justify the phobia. Speculation, without good support, does not a proven point make.
Look Sub, out of respect for the other posters and the forum overall I'm not going to tangle with you on this sideshow stuff about statistics once someone like Bob has unquestionably addressed it and dismantled it - it's a stupid "nuh uh".... "uh huh" volley otherwise.
This whole tussle began when I called you out on OVER stating the risk factors in your reply /advice to a guy who genuinely wanted to know if he was foolishly putting his family in danger by traveling into PP.
"OVER" being the operative part of my objection to your words.
Neither I nor anyone else was trying to sell PP as a fantasy adventureland charmed from the everyday threats of any town.
We simply call foul on your strange and OVER stated assertions that there is some special threat that MERITS fear of the place.
You've been alternately vague, story-telling, supportive of our view, and just argumentative - I'm not even sure what your point is anymore - care to start over?
I stand by my original caling out of your OVERstatements, and even after all this fooforaw you've kicked up you've not presented one real comon sense reason to justify the phobia. Speculation, without good support, does not a proven point make.
Submarine said:The entire U.S. Media seems to be behind the point of view I have espoused here (note to the 'intelligent', read that carefully).
OH MY GOD. You're going to point to the hysteria itself....... to prove your point that the hysteria is justified?
The media is your testimonial witness... your source material?
You've got to be joking Sub --- do you want to clarify this or take it back before your credibility is shot?
You DO realize tha the American media are as balanced and responsible as.... well.... a drug cartel pushing product, don't you? The media was the gasoline on the spark ---- they're not your reference points.
WOW.
Last edited: Jun 4, 2009 at 6:13 PM
made of rocks.
You are still wrong Sub... A reef does not have to be organic, as you have insisted before. Like your head, it can be made of rocks.:roll: You seem to be stuck with the "best-known". Therefore you have a narrow rock pile sub.:D
"If you're gonna accuse someone of being irrational or unobjective you should accompany it immediately and clearly with your reasoning" There ya go..LOL
In nautical terminology, a reef is a rock, sandbar, or other feature lying beneath the surface of the water (six fathoms or less at low water).
Many reefs result from abiotic processes—deposition of sand, wave erosion planning down rock outcrops, and other natural processes—but the best-known reefs are the coral reefs of tropical waters developed through biotic processes dominated by corals and calcareous algae. Artificial reefs such as shipwrecks are sometimes created to enhance physical complexity on generally featureless sand bottoms in order to attract a diverse assemblage of organisms, especially fish
Submarine said:F you and your "reefs"! :lol: Those are more shoals or mounds, hardly worthy of calling a "reef". A reef would be composed of something organic, or living at one time, not those miserable pile of rocks!
I can see where it would ruin the Sandy Beach mystique though. People aren't going to pay Scottsdale prices for shrimp at a restaurant called "The Shoal". Guess I'm just prejudiced though from seeing some of the best and most vibrant coral reefs close up. I'll try to refrain! 8-)
You are still wrong Sub... A reef does not have to be organic, as you have insisted before. Like your head, it can be made of rocks.:roll: You seem to be stuck with the "best-known". Therefore you have a narrow rock pile sub.:D
"If you're gonna accuse someone of being irrational or unobjective you should accompany it immediately and clearly with your reasoning" There ya go..LOL
In nautical terminology, a reef is a rock, sandbar, or other feature lying beneath the surface of the water (six fathoms or less at low water).
Many reefs result from abiotic processes—deposition of sand, wave erosion planning down rock outcrops, and other natural processes—but the best-known reefs are the coral reefs of tropical waters developed through biotic processes dominated by corals and calcareous algae. Artificial reefs such as shipwrecks are sometimes created to enhance physical complexity on generally featureless sand bottoms in order to attract a diverse assemblage of organisms, especially fish
Last edited: Jun 4, 2009 at 6:49 PM
One, Two... Your outa there. I tried not to chime in again but I couldn't help myself.
Submarine said:
""Well if you and Bob want to disregard statistics based on your own reality be my guest. The groups that compiles those statistics didn't do so on the basis that they are worthless for comparison. What would be the point? ""
I don't see that anyone 'disregarded' the statistics. The point is that the 'statisticts' were misinterpreted. These numbers, collected as they are, are useful for descriptive purposes,and much less for predictive purposes. This is an important difference often misunderstood.
Last edited: Jun 6, 2009 at 12:28 PM
Tahiti sucks too.
http://www.elicia.org/trip/tahiti/tahiti1.htm
unless you are fond of package tour douce bags and hillybilly newlyweds
http://www.elicia.org/trip/tahiti/tahiti1.htm
unless you are fond of package tour douce bags and hillybilly newlyweds
Roberto said:Submarine said:
Well if you and Bob want to disregard statistics based on your own reality be my guest. The groups that compiles those statistics didn't do so on the basis that they are worthless for comparison. What would be the point?
I don't see that anyone 'disregared' the statistics. The point is that the 'statisticts' were misinterpreted. These numbers, collected as they are, are useful for descriptive purposes,and much less for predictive purposes. This is an important difference often misunderstood.
Sorry for the typos Bob, the ASUS EEEpc I use when travelling has a very small keyboard.
So, by your logic, even though I can show that Phoenix has been very hot the last few decades I can't predict that this summer it will be hot. Good thing I didn't pack away my jacket!
jerry said:Tahiti sucks too.
http://www.elicia.org/trip/tahiti/tahiti1.htm
unless you are fond of package tour douce bags and hillybilly newlyweds
That's priceless Jerry! I was actually surprised that there are quite a few camping spots on Tahiti and Moorea, something for every budget. They honeymooners are the ones that get suckered into a package tour, usually from Costco. I had one friend who spent $15k on a 9 day trip and he hated it because it rained the whole time. I could have brokered him a better trip for a month at that rate! The high prices do keep away the hillbillys for the most part, though there is always that Ugly American factor anywhere you go. Tahiti actually changed my whole opinion of the French BTW, but maybe they are just much more relaxed in Tahiti.
m4shawn said:OH MY GOD. You're going to point to the hysteria itself....... to prove your point that the hysteria is justified?
The media is your testimonial witness... your source material?
You've got to be joking Sub --- do you want to clarify this or take it back before your credibility is shot?
You DO realize tha the American media are as balanced and responsible as.... well.... a drug cartel pushing product, don't you? The media was the gasoline on the spark ---- they're not your reference points.
WOW.
Ever see kids pick on the retarded kid in gradeschool and after a while it wasn't fun because their poor victim couldn't help being retarded and it just became cruel? I think I know how those kids felt.
Stuart let the cat out of the bag a while back but you still didn't get it.
I have been jerking your chain
Reread that whole post you quoted and try to be objective. I laid it all out for you but apparently not clear enough. Your 'defense' of Rocky Point sounds like those hysterical ads on Craigslist from desparate condo owners. "CONDO FOR RENT--ROCKY POINT IS SAFE!!" Just pull up the vacation rental section and see what I mean. Like I said, the media and the general public has accepted that Mexico is dangerous and that Rocky Point is no exception. All anyone can come up with is that either they haven't had problems on their trips or they've lived there a while and feel safe etc. This is not going to change public opinion and is following the same path Baja has taken to try and hide the problem.
So try to put aside your obvious disgust for me and think about what I have been saying in a different context.
Oh no! Sub has just jumped out of the plane without a parachute again. Why do we always let him do that?
Kenny
Kenny
Insipid stuff Sub. On behalf of anyone who gave the effort to engage you intelligently: bugger off.
SUB Sez: So, by your logic, even
My logic has nothing to do with it. It's a simple statement of fact. Check your statistics book. Keep with your original assertion, you are misinterpreting. Bye Bye.
My logic has nothing to do with it. It's a simple statement of fact. Check your statistics book. Keep with your original assertion, you are misinterpreting. Bye Bye.
Well I guess we know what will be on the barbie at Jerry's place!
See what Sub has taught us in today's posting class on gripping your pet "I'm right" point? Grip it tightly! Grip it tightly enough that no one can take it from you... take the limp, dead body of it that you strangled with your Kung-fu grip.
You see, if all else fails and you paint yourself into a corner.... abort! Abandon your integrity and tell them you were yanking their chain - it was a "punking"! Sure, you'll be snapping the neck of your entire argument, you know the one you spent 16 posts trying to sell even with entire articles, but you'll let them all know: "I'm the wiser one - GOTCHA! You thought I was serious? PSYCHE - I was being an Internet Troll! You dumbass!"
Brilliant.
You see, if all else fails and you paint yourself into a corner.... abort! Abandon your integrity and tell them you were yanking their chain - it was a "punking"! Sure, you'll be snapping the neck of your entire argument, you know the one you spent 16 posts trying to sell even with entire articles, but you'll let them all know: "I'm the wiser one - GOTCHA! You thought I was serious? PSYCHE - I was being an Internet Troll! You dumbass!"
Brilliant.
Still a little bent? You really are that desperate for tourism to return to normal aren't you?
Hey, taking out your anger over the Media's portrayal of Rocky Point and Mexico in general with me isn't going to get you anywhere. Sorry if I touched a nerve pointing out that your hysterical 'defense' of RP doesn't work on most people and asking you to come up with a better argument. All you really did was post an extended ad hominum attack.
Some of the longtime posters know I'll play Devils Advocate from time to time, if you like to call it trolling that's fine but wrong. Sorry if you devoted too much time to this nonsense. I don't care one iota what you think of my credibility or integrity as the people here who know me won't be jumping on your bandwagon. It's too bad you didn't to a little more research other than counting my posts as you would have probably found out that not only have I been going to RP since 1982 my brother owns property there. I think it's so dangerous I was recently trying to organize a motorcycle ride with some of my sportrider friends. We were even going to head down through Sasabe or maybe even farther east. What would have been nice is if you had come up with something less emotional because even those deathtrap riding adrenaline junkies are too afraid to ride into Mexico and I've given up trying to convince them. Researching the articles was fun for me but disappointing on how little factual information is out there especially RP specific. It's mostly real estate agents using bogus stats, like that crime index someone posted up, and anecdotes. Mexico and RP in particular have a long way to go to convice people that it's relatively safe, and it might be a lost cause. A lot of is "If you don't go you don't know" but even some people who went in their High School or College spring break days aren't going to go back with their families. I had one friend who went with me for years who just up and decided it wasn't worth it to him anymore. We never had any problems on our trips but the media just got to him I guess.
The latest round with that massacre at the Y, swine flu, shootout in Acapulco, and the 38 kids killed in that daycare doesn't help. I didn't even bring up building codes, guess I missed one! I don't know if I can read over the last few pages again as I might convince myself!
Here's a project for you: Why don't you go on that Viper forum and try to change those peoples minds. Use your hysterical defense or maybe try something more reasonable. Reading your "bandito" page shows you might need to rethink your strategy of choice though. The way you are doing it just gets people to dig in their heels and stay home.
You've said before that this stuff makes you 'crazy angry', maybe that's the problem.
Hey, taking out your anger over the Media's portrayal of Rocky Point and Mexico in general with me isn't going to get you anywhere. Sorry if I touched a nerve pointing out that your hysterical 'defense' of RP doesn't work on most people and asking you to come up with a better argument. All you really did was post an extended ad hominum attack.
Some of the longtime posters know I'll play Devils Advocate from time to time, if you like to call it trolling that's fine but wrong. Sorry if you devoted too much time to this nonsense. I don't care one iota what you think of my credibility or integrity as the people here who know me won't be jumping on your bandwagon. It's too bad you didn't to a little more research other than counting my posts as you would have probably found out that not only have I been going to RP since 1982 my brother owns property there. I think it's so dangerous I was recently trying to organize a motorcycle ride with some of my sportrider friends. We were even going to head down through Sasabe or maybe even farther east. What would have been nice is if you had come up with something less emotional because even those deathtrap riding adrenaline junkies are too afraid to ride into Mexico and I've given up trying to convince them. Researching the articles was fun for me but disappointing on how little factual information is out there especially RP specific. It's mostly real estate agents using bogus stats, like that crime index someone posted up, and anecdotes. Mexico and RP in particular have a long way to go to convice people that it's relatively safe, and it might be a lost cause. A lot of is "If you don't go you don't know" but even some people who went in their High School or College spring break days aren't going to go back with their families. I had one friend who went with me for years who just up and decided it wasn't worth it to him anymore. We never had any problems on our trips but the media just got to him I guess.
The latest round with that massacre at the Y, swine flu, shootout in Acapulco, and the 38 kids killed in that daycare doesn't help. I didn't even bring up building codes, guess I missed one! I don't know if I can read over the last few pages again as I might convince myself!
Here's a project for you: Why don't you go on that Viper forum and try to change those peoples minds. Use your hysterical defense or maybe try something more reasonable. Reading your "bandito" page shows you might need to rethink your strategy of choice though. The way you are doing it just gets people to dig in their heels and stay home.
You've said before that this stuff makes you 'crazy angry', maybe that's the problem.
Classic forum silly stuff there, Sub: try to color the other guy as bent, excited, hysterical, butt hurt, etc... (yawn). Come on, knock it off.Submarine said:Still a little bent? You really are that desperate for tourism to return to normal aren't you?
And I do care about the very real threat that continued misinformation and perjorative news reporting could intensify the phobia over Mexico to the point that irrepairable damage is done. Ghost towns happen. Concerned = desperate?
No - I'm just just not flippant.
Not me, Sub - see YOU declared yourself a troll by screaming in giant block letters that you were yanking my chain all along, that you were "making fun of the retarded kid", (funny!) - and this is the definition of an internet troll. Is your motive just to taunt and provoke? That's quite different from playing devil's advocate. Are you saying you mispoke? That's fine - you can back out of it; I'll let it go. I don't believe you were trolling for reals; I think you just misjudged into a bad tack. But that's up to you to retract it or own it - pick your poison - you're the one who set yourself up to twist in the wind.Submarine said:...if you like to call it trolling that's fine but wrong.
(Laughing) hysterical, huh?Submarine said:Sorry if I touched a nerve pointing out that your hysterical 'defense' of RP doesn't work on most people and asking you to come up with a better argument.
I'm saying the air is thick with OVERreactions and MISinformation about RP and it's wrong - exactly what about this do you find "hysterical"?
I'm not "defending" RP, as if it needs defending. I am on the offense - challenging hysteria, AND challenging you for cuddling up to it with your OVERstating of the risks; I am battling hysteria, friend.
And a better argument? You mean better than looking beyond media hype and poplular phobia that has reached hoax level -- better than that? Better than advocating common sense? Better than decrying panic? Hmm... wow you're right - I am obviously out of control.
I'm not going to get mired down in defending myself - let's stick to the issues, OK? La Huerita wrote a most excellent blog today on the importance of combating panicky perceptions about RP; I for one stand with her in that opinion. Piquito Rosy has told you that it is ridiculous to have to prove that things are NOT happening. That's comical. You seem to want to defend hysteria --- why? Seriously, if you believe RP is safe enough to come, why are you devoting so much effort with this odd "devil's advocate" schtick? You actually seem to savor being contrary, just for the sake of it. Why?
That's a shame. My credibility and character are important to me, even with strangers, unless they show me they aren't worth my concern. I don't know what I have done to deserve being dismissed me as so piss stupid that I'm beneath you. I still hope to turn you to the good side of The Force.[/QUOTE]Submarine said:I don't care one iota what you think of my credibility or integrity...
And this does not bother you? You just shrug your shoulders in glib indifference to this? You know Sub, it's easy to mock others for caring about an issue, for speaking up - easy to point and snort at earnest concern and call out "hysterical" from the back of the classroom. That's bush. Your friend's poorly thought out abandonment of beautiful RP is a damn shame. It's exactly the reason those of us who care are talking about it with such gusto.Submarine said:..had one friend who went with me for years who just up and decided it wasn't worth it to him anymore. We never had any problems on our trips but the media just got to him I guess.
Last edited: Jun 8, 2009 at 9:15 PM
<yawn> Hey, anybody got a cold beer?
Hey y'all!
GREAT NEWS!
Made it back from Rocky Point and
~~get this~~
We didn't even get shot at!
NO drug violence...
NO random gunfire...
Just peaceful waters, hot salsa, yummy shrimp and ice cold cerveza!
Amazing huh?
Hey Stuart...got your cold one right here :)
Sol, XX or Corona?
One lime or two?
Ahhhhh.....the simple life!
Cheers y'all!
GREAT NEWS!
Made it back from Rocky Point and
~~get this~~
We didn't even get shot at!
NO drug violence...
NO random gunfire...
Just peaceful waters, hot salsa, yummy shrimp and ice cold cerveza!
Amazing huh?
Hey Stuart...got your cold one right here :)
Sol, XX or Corona?
One lime or two?
Ahhhhh.....the simple life!
Cheers y'all!
Last edited: Jun 8, 2009 at 9:13 AM
I often cross danger when I go for a walk in my north scottsdale gated community. With coyotes not checking in at the guard gate I have to deal with danger on a daily basis. Unfortunately my MMA gym classes cannot protect me. I am thinking about calling the local media to do a report on the dangers of living in north scottsdale.
"my MMA gym classes cannot protect me" Hmmm? I might have an idea for Jim's Bar(The excellent Camel Toe} how about a MMA style cage match with ground and pound specialist Dryheat taking on Pigeon Coop poo pooer Sally? M4shawn and Sub might be a good prelim bout. I challenge that shithead property managment jerk Steve that wrecked the last forum because he had his feelings hurt.
Living here for 3 years with my lovely wife and my 15y ear old son and having had traveled extensively both in the US and in Mexico, I have to say that if anyone gets on a blog like this and declares that they live in a perfect or safe place is only fooling themselves. I fully enjoy living, working and investing in Mexico. I am not a real estate agent just a regular guy doing business here. Some of it is tourist based but some if not most is only local population based.
I see the crime in the Y as what it is -drug violence- I hope they kill off the rest of the punks before I die but I am sure they will not. Worrying about this in your thoughts about coming to RP is Akin to not going to Atlanta or New Orleans because they have a super high crime rate (FYI More people killed in NO in 08 than in Tijuana in 08 and TJ is 10 times larger)
Be safe - love the ones you are with and have fun - smile often.
Come to Penasco enjoy the beach, enjoy the weather, enjoy the people. Stay away from the drug industry (sage advice in any country) and you will have a nice life!
Cold one time!
I see the crime in the Y as what it is -drug violence- I hope they kill off the rest of the punks before I die but I am sure they will not. Worrying about this in your thoughts about coming to RP is Akin to not going to Atlanta or New Orleans because they have a super high crime rate (FYI More people killed in NO in 08 than in Tijuana in 08 and TJ is 10 times larger)
Be safe - love the ones you are with and have fun - smile often.
Come to Penasco enjoy the beach, enjoy the weather, enjoy the people. Stay away from the drug industry (sage advice in any country) and you will have a nice life!
Cold one time!
Laughing at your post, Jerry :D; a cage match might be the only civilized way for Sub and I to knock each other around from here on out. Certainly would be more entertaining for the crowd.;-)
Bring it on boys. Maybe we can rent some of those big sumo wrestler suits and sell tickets?
Multiple threads about murders, killings, etc, are scaring people, even if they don't read the entire thread.
I'm going to close these, if new topics come up we can discuss them but there's no sense talking about it anymore..
Let's talk about how great the weather is, instead... mmkay.
I'm going to close these, if new topics come up we can discuss them but there's no sense talking about it anymore..
Let's talk about how great the weather is, instead... mmkay.