WHOW,is all I can say. We hit the secondary checkpoint on wednesday at 11 or 11;30 and the guy there said we had a problem.I said whats that and he takes me to the back of the trailer and he shows me the expired tag on my trailer. I didn't evenknow. So I said I would take care of it when I returned to Phx. and said sorry. He tells me to turn around and go to Phx. .He would not budge at all. So we spent an extra 3 and 1/2 hours and went back to Sonoyota and through Caborca . So I am telling you all to make sure your tags on your trailers are current or they will turn you around. I had my title for the trailer and all. He said no way ,go back .I even offered to buy a temp permit through him (if you know what I mean )and he said no. Leigh
No this was souih of rocky point. I was trying to bribe him. Leigh
My friend had an atv turned back there. They turned around,dropped the atv and his 14 year old kid off at the railroad crossing...dropped the trailer off at Mirramar and he went back through....met up with the kid after he had a 10 mile ride along the tacks on a moon lite Mexican night to a place south of the checkpoint.They drove slow the rest of the way with the ATV leading..When the ex wife found out about this the fur flew!
Yeah it was such a joke. I got pulled over on the new freeway by the federal police going 75 in a 55 and he said ,make sure you get the plate fixed. no ticket or anything
Federals were looking for stolen vehicles or illegal drivers. Mexico has a set of complicated laws about who can drive a vehicle in Mexico. For example, I haave been told by a Mexican abogado who works for Hacienda, Mexican citizens can drive a US licensed vehicle if they have the same last name as on the registration or the registered owner is in the car. I guess the laws are intended to stop the illegal use or import of vehicles without paying for Nationalization, a very expensive operation. There may be some differences between the free zone and other parts of the country as well.
Monday, On the short cut road in Sonota the federal police were checking vin #'s on the dash and the driver door on every veh.
Really?!? The short cut just after the intersection a few miles after the border as you pass the Circle K? Where did they have it? Closer to the OXXO and/or Arizona Market store? Did it create a line? And was it just autos going in towards Penasco or leaving?
Actually in Az. they would have written a ticket and you are on your way. I would have much rather paid a ticket and saved 3 extra hrs besides all the fuel. Hey I've been going down for 26 years without a problem and we do a whole lot for the people of Lobos. I'm just glad they didn't see all the food and clothes as well as wetsuits we bring down for the people. Life is good and we still made our delivery to them I just wish I could have saved time and money. Like I said I have never had a problem before, my fault for not noticing the expired plates. Leigh Also I had the title, with me, on the trailer, to show I owned it.
Recently, a Mexican woman was driving her boyfriend's AZ registered car from Tucson to Hermosillo, on a routine and frequent visit to her other home and family. Both she and her boyfriend have permanent resident status in the US. Her boyfriend wasn't with her. She had her daughter, and her daughter's three children with her in the car. She was stopped at a Hacienda checkpoint north of Hermosillo. Because the registered owner was not in the car, the car was confiscated by Hacienda, and transportation was provided to her and those in her car to her home in Hermosillo. In order for the car to be recovered, a fine of three times the value of the car must be paid to Hacienda, so her boyfriend has essentially lost his car. She usually uses her own car for travel between Tucson and Hermosillo, but this time she used her boyfriend's car while her car was being serviced. There was no evidence that she intended to dispose of the car in Mexico in violation of Mexican law. The car was lost solely do to the technicality that the registered owner wasn't present in the vehicle. Apparently, there is no available appeal process to challenge this unjust summary confiscation. Mexican laws are very harsh on Mexican citizens, so tourists shouldn't complain about very lenient treatment for their infractions, or be arrogrant about violating Mexican laws.
This is all to insure that vehicles driven by Mexicans go through the lengthy and expensive importation process. Laws designed to collect revenue and to protect Mexican manufacturing and sales.
It was explained to me when I had a Mexican esposa who drove my vehicles. A Hacienda attorney friend said if she drove alone out to Fremont and crossed into el Centro there was no problem. If she turned right onto Fremont down to Josefa the vehicle could be confiscated as you described. I think it has to do with the free zone boundaries. The driver can be Mexican if the registered US owner is present in the vehicle or if the Mexican Driver has proof that they are formally married to the US owner.
Harsh laws. Think about that when people start complaining about US regulations.
Chari...the laws they are talking about are for Mexicans...driving non-mexican registered vehicles.... I would check with Rosy (if you have insurance with her, or if not)...but I think he would just have to have the registration and a notarized document that he had permission to drive the vehicle.
Chari...the laws they are talking about are for Mexicans...driving non-mexican registered vehicles.... I would check with Rosy (if you have insurance with her, or if not)...but I think he would just have to have the registration and a notarized document that he had permission to drive the vehicle.
I have been told that if the Mexican citizen can prove he/she lives in the U.S. and shows a valid U.S. driver's license and valid Immigration documents showing legal residence in the States along with the owner's authorization to drive the vehicle, it would suffice. The law exists to cut down on the number of vehicles being driven down here without having been properly imported. There was a time when drivers weren't hassled so much in town and just had to worry about being pulled over on the highways or caught at the checkpoints. Right now, screening is tough on this and even around town Mexican citizens are being yanked for driving cars with U.S. plates. I've been called on to intervene for two people who opted to just let the vehicles go rather than pay the high fines to get them back. By the way, you can be made to pay the fines and lose the car.
One case was an American citizen who didn't feel well so he sent his Mexican employee to Lukeville to get his mail. When the employee was coming back across the border, he was detained and the car impounded. The American had to pay the bail for his employee and a fine for the offense. He opted not to pay the added amount to get his truck back. Weeks later, Hacienda came knocking on the door with yet another amount due for the offense. The Mexican employee was told that if he didn't pay it, his home would be taken. The American paid that debt, too.
The other case was one in which an American couple had a little car and decided to simply give it to a hard-working Mexican family they'd known for years. The Mexican family knew they should legally import it, but never did. One day they got pulled over in town and the car was impounded. They paid about $1,500 dollars to avoid prosecution, but the car wasn't returned. It would've been returned to the Americans (after paying the impound fees), but the Americans were not available and either didn't want to add more money to the gift or make the additional trip down to take care of it.
In retrospect, it doesn't appear I was of much help to either of them, but at least they had an interpreter to explain the process and we were able to negotiate the fines down quite a bit from what was originally sought.
Chari, if Jerry is driving your Jeep, the notarized authorization should do it.
Rosie;
What do you know about the CONDEFA plates. You see them commonly. I read somewhere that there is some loophole in the law that allows one to drive an unimported car with this plate.
The one thing I know about them is NOT to have an accident with one!!! The police claimed there was no way to track the owner of the vehicle (hit and run...but had the license plate number).
Rosie;
What do you know about the CONDEFA plates. You see them commonly. I read somewhere that there is some loophole in the law that allows one to drive an unimported car with this plate.
Whenever I've asked anyone about the CONDEFA plates, I get sketchy answers. Kinda like when I ask what "Hassle free zone" means. I ask my husband and he says, "Those are all the people who will someday lose their cars!" One day soon I'll get off my rear end and go over there to get a real answer for you. Oh, alright...maybe manana.
Definitely NOT "official", but a local told me that the plate allows the locals to drive their vehicle in town until they could get them fixed, registered, insured....don't know the mileage limitation....definitely not insured. There used to be an office in the same plaza as Cosmos2000 Pharmacy...that was the(???) C.O.N.D.E.F.A. office...don't recall if it is still there.
(on Benito Juarez by the RR track crossing...near Rosy's office and Tequila Factory). The way it was explained to me, it was some politician who was given (??) the authority to issue the plates.....was also told that he was supposed to stop doing it...but you see new ones all the time (paper....not worn/faded yet).
A friend had a hit and run accident with one a few years ago...someone got the license number...when we went to the police station, they said they couldn't do anything and couldn't identify the vehicle owner....she was able to get a police report so she could deal with her Mexican insurance.
All I know is that I steer very clear of any with that plate when I'm in town!
Quoted from Rosie's recent post, with emphasis added:
"I have been told that if the Mexican citizen can prove he/she lives in the U.S. and shows a valid U.S. driver's license and valid Immigration documents showing legal residence in the States along with the OWNER'S AUTHORIZATION TO DRIVE THE VEHICLE, it would suffice."
I would not trust "word of mouth" in regard to this issue, especially in what constitutes "owner's authorization" to drive the vehicle. A "notorized" letter of authorization may work in town with the local police, but it may not work with Hacienda. In the case I cited, the owner of the vehicle made two unsuccessful trips to Hacienda in Hermosillo trying to recover his vehicle. His personal testimony that his girlfriend had his permission to drive his vehicle in Mexico did not change the status of his confiscated car. He faced a fine of $9000 for his $3000 valued car, and paying the fine was no guarantee that he would recover his car. Unless someone has other legal info, it appears that the only safe, and legal way for a Mexican to drive a non-Mexican registered vehicle in Mexico, is to add the Mexican driver to the title of the vehicle.
It is my understanding that there are several organzations involved in "legalizing" vehicles of unknown origin in Mexico, of which CONDEFA is one. At least one organization is identified with a political candidate, who uses the organization to gain popular support. If it is supposed to be a temporary status, but, in reality, it seems to be an open-ended means to operate an undocumented vehicle locally. Since there seems to be considerable interest in this vehicle status, it would be great if Rosie, or some other knowlegable person would post the operational legalities of these organizations.
Quoted from Rosie's recent post, with emphasis added:
"I have been told that if the Mexican citizen can prove he/she lives in the U.S. and shows a valid U.S. driver's license and valid Immigration documents showing legal residence in the States along with the OWNER'S AUTHORIZATION TO DRIVE THE VEHICLE, it would suffice."
I would not trust "word of mouth" in regard to this issue, especially in what constitutes "owner's authorization" to drive the vehicle. A "notorized" letter of authorization may work in town with the local police, but it may not work with Hacienda. In the case I cited, the owner of the vehicle made two unsuccessful trips to Hacienda in Hermosillo trying to recover his vehicle. His personal testimony that his girlfriend had his permission to drive his vehicle in Mexico did not change the status of his confiscated car. He faced a fine of $9000 for his $3000 valued car, and paying the fine was no guarantee that he would recover his car. Unless someone has other legal info, it appears that the only safe, and legal way for a Mexican to drive a non-Mexican registered vehicle in Mexico, is to add the Mexican driver to the title of the vehicle.
I should clarify that I was told by the Aduana employee who detained the Mexican employee who went to Lukeville in an American registered pickup. He said that if the guy could prove he had legal residence in the US and was authorized to drive the truck, he would not have been detained and the car impounded.
I agree with you, Jack that it's risky, however putting the Mexican person on the title isn't the answer by itself, as that person would still have to answer for being caught driving an un-imported vehicle. The vehicle still gets confiscated and the person still gets fined.
It is my understanding that there are several organzations involved in "legalizing" vehicles of unknown origin in Mexico, of which CONDEFA is one. At least one organization is identified with a political candidate, who uses the organization to gain popular support. If it is supposed to be a temporary status, but, in reality, it seems to be an open-ended means to operate an undocumented vehicle locally. Since there seems to be considerable interest in this vehicle status, it would be great if Rosie, or some other knowlegable person would post the operational legalities of these organizations.
I'll send someone over to CONDEFA today and try to get some answers on this.
What has to be done to legally transfer ownership of an AZ titled car to a Mexican citizen? And what would be the cost? Car value $750.00 - $1,000.0 US. I wanted to assist someone in getting better transportation but my concern is that the title would need to be transferred to them.
It would be less expensive to buy a used sonora plated auto, last time I informed about importing a car the fee's were around $750.00 who knows what they want now. Also if you give them your old car you know you are giving them something reliable.You would have to sign to title over to them and they would pay the import fee's at the border when they or whoever crosses
the auto..
The issue is the nationality of the person driving/owning and the ownership/nationality of the vehicle registration/title. Mex - Mex is OK. Mex - US is OK when the registered owner is in the vehicle only unless they have the same last name as on the registration. Don't know about US - Mex. I never got stopped. I do know that if you get the new "Immigrado" permanent residency (above the old FM2) status you cannot drive a US licensed and titled vehicle outside of the free zone !! You have to import your vehicle to do so. That info directly from the local director of the immigration office.
To get a car registered in Mexico it must be 'imported'. There are two levels of importation. National meaning the vehicle is good to go anywhere in Mexico at anytime. Fronteria meaning the car can be driven at any time in the free zone only. The Fronteria imported vehicle can be driven outside of the free zone for only a specified number of days per year. You must obtain a permit, each trip, to drive a Fronteria car outside of the free zone and that process also documents the number of days of each trip and the total number of days a year. You get the permit the day you want to leave and have to return the permit with the vehicle for inspection when you return. So if you live in Hermosillo, you cannot own and keep a Fronteria vehicle there. If you live in Penasco you can own a Fronteria vehicle and drive to Hermosillo in it after obtaining the required permit. Not sure where the office to get the permit is now. It was in Penasco then moved to Caborca. One late trip returning from Kino the office in Caborca was closed and we had to drive back down the next day to return the permit and check the van in !!
There are restrictions also on the age of vehicles eligible for either type of importation and those restrictions are different by type of importation. Those laws have been changing and I have not kept up but I recall that as part of the NAFTA business the restrictions on vehicle importation were to be loosened up quite a bit over a period of 10 years or so.
A friend recently imported a vehicle. Cost several thousand dollars and he had to have it trailered to Mexicali since there was no legal plate on it and it could not legally be driven on the highways. The law permits an individual to import without a broker, but it is difficult and they usually charge a couple of hundred.
Several friends have done what you are thinking about. They simply gave the vehicle to the person, along with the US title (keeping a signed copy), showing signed over to the local and also got a bill of sale or reciept all to recuce any liability. The locals will have to deal with the problem then, a CONDEFA plate, no plate at all or import.
The issue is the nationality of the person driving/owning and the ownership/nationality of the vehicle registration/title. Mex - Mex is OK. Mex - US is OK when the registered owner is in the vehicle only unless they have the same last name as on the registration. Don't know about US - Mex. I never got stopped. I do know that if you get the new "Immigrado" permanent residency (above the old FM2) status you cannot drive a US licensed and titled vehicle outside of the free zone !! You have to import your vehicle to do so. That info directly from the local director of the immigration office.
To get a car registered in Mexico it must be 'imported'. There are two levels of importation. National meaning the vehicle is good to go anywhere in Mexico at anytime. Fronteria meaning the car can be driven at any time in the free zone only. The Fronteria imported vehicle can be driven outside of the free zone for only a specified number of days per year. You must obtain a permit, each trip, to drive a Fronteria car outside of the free zone and that process also documents the number of days of each trip and the total number of days a year. You get the permit the day you want to leave and have to return the permit with the vehicle for inspection when you return. So if you live in Hermosillo, you cannot own and keep a Fronteria vehicle there. If you live in Penasco you can own a Fronteria vehicle and drive to Hermosillo in it after obtaining the required permit. Not sure where the office to get the permit is now. It was in Penasco then moved to Caborca. One late trip returning from Kino the office in Caborca was closed and we had to drive back down the next day to return the permit and check the van in !!
There are restrictions also on the age of vehicles eligible for either type of importation and those restrictions are different by type of importation. Those laws have been changing and I have not kept up but I recall that as part of the NAFTA business the restrictions on vehicle importation were to be loosened up quite a bit over a period of 10 years or so.
A friend recently imported a vehicle. Cost several thousand dollars and he had to have it trailered to Mexicali since there was no legal plate on it and it could not legally be driven on the highways. The law permits an individual to import without a broker, but it is difficult and they usually charge a couple of hundred.
Several friends have done what you are thinking about. They simply gave the vehicle to the person, along with the US title (keeping a signed copy), showing signed over to the local and also got a bill of sale or reciept all to recuce any liability. The locals will have to deal with the problem then, a CONDEFA plate, no plate at all or import.
The issue is the nationality of the person driving/owning and the ownership/nationality of the vehicle registration/title. Mex - Mex is OK. Mex - US is OK when the registered owner is in the vehicle only unless they have the same last name as on the registration. Don't know about US - Mex. I never got stopped. I do know that if you get the new "Immigrado" permanent residency (above the old FM2) status you cannot drive a US licensed and titled vehicle outside of the free zone !! You have to import your vehicle to do so. That info directly from the local director of the immigration office.
To get a car registered in Mexico it must be 'imported'. There are two levels of importation. National meaning the vehicle is good to go anywhere in Mexico at anytime. Fronteria meaning the car can be driven at any time in the free zone only. The Fronteria imported vehicle can be driven outside of the free zone for only a specified number of days per year. You must obtain a permit, each trip, to drive a Fronteria car outside of the free zone and that process also documents the number of days of each trip and the total number of days a year. You get the permit the day you want to leave and have to return the permit with the vehicle for inspection when you return. So if you live in Hermosillo, you cannot own and keep a Fronteria vehicle there. If you live in Penasco you can own a Fronteria vehicle and drive to Hermosillo in it after obtaining the required permit. Not sure where the office to get the permit is now. It was in Penasco then moved to Caborca. One late trip returning from Kino the office in Caborca was closed and we had to drive back down the next day to return the permit and check the van in !!
There are restrictions also on the age of vehicles eligible for either type of importation and those restrictions are different by type of importation. Those laws have been changing and I have not kept up but I recall that as part of the NAFTA business the restrictions on vehicle importation were to be loosened up quite a bit over a period of 10 years or so.
A friend recently imported a vehicle. Cost several thousand dollars and he had to have it trailered to Mexicali since there was no legal plate on it and it could not legally be driven on the highways. The law permits an individual to import without a broker, but it is difficult and they usually charge a couple of hundred.
Several friends have done what you are thinking about. They simply gave the vehicle to the person, along with the US title (keeping a signed copy), showing signed over to the local and also got a bill of sale or reciept all to recuce any liability. The locals will have to deal with the problem then, a CONDEFA plate, no plate at all or import.
Lagrimis, Rosy, did I get that mostly right??
Good job, Roberto~
Current auto importation laws state that a car must be at least 7 years old to be legally imported. I just bought a 2004 Envoy with Mexican (as opposed to Fronterizo) plates. In 2011, that was the newest year possible to import. The guy who sold it to me paid $1,400 for the importation and broker. National plates make a car worth more here in Mexico (think resale). For me, Mexican plates are the best option.
In an earlier post I told you guys about an American couple who gave a car to a Mexican family with the intention of helping them out. That turned out to be a nightmare for everyone involved. The American owner went to DMV and got the title out of his name in the States and then gave it to his friend. The friend didn't pay to legally import it, so he got pinched, lost the car, had to pay fines and an attorney to keep out of jail. The car couldn't be retrieved because it legally belonged to nobody, as the DMV had already taken the first owner's name off it. The American could've probably gotten it back, but only after paying fines and impound fees and coming down to give statements, etc. He decided the little car wasn't worth the hassle. My advice is to not give anyone a car unless you can afford to also import it for them.
Now, CONDEFA plates. CONDEFA is just one of countless so-called civic organizations set up for the purposes of giving low-income people a way to drive a vehicle around their town without yet having completed the importation process. There's much controversy because while initially meant to be a temporary solution, allowing drivers to work and save money for the importation, most have not complied and they simply keep driving with those plates. If caught on the highway, all bets are off, though. In many states, government is negotiating with the CONDEFA-like organizations and someday the free ride might come to an abrupt end.
Rosy...were you able to find out if the CONDEFA organization that issued the plate is able to identify who the owner of the vehicle is?...for example in the case of an accident? Do the owners have to carry insurance? In essence...is there any kind of control of those vehicles????
BTW i like your term "so called civic organizations"....I'm restraining myself from using a smiley!
Most cars brought into mexico from the good usa have fresh paint and low miles is because they have salvage titles. They are worth half their value. Once they are
here in mexico they have a real nice clean imported title. Why do you think they would pay over $1000.00 to import it when they sell the same auto in mexico already
here with national plates. The vin # might tell whether it had a salvage title in some cases. Remember carfax.
I should clarify that I was told by the Aduana employee who detained the Mexican employee who went to Lukeville in an American registered pickup. He said that if the guy could prove he had legal residence in the US and was authorized to drive the truck, he would not have been detained and the car impounded.
I agree with you, Jack that it's risky, however putting the Mexican person on the title isn't the answer by itself, as that person would still have to answer for being caught driving an un-imported vehicle. The vehicle still gets confiscated and the person still gets fined.
Sorry, Rosy, I disagree. Aduana and Hacienda have nothing to do with each other. It is illegal for anyone to drive an "un-imported" vehicle in Mexico, whether foreign or Mexican national. Tourists are not in violation of Mexican law for driving their foreign registered (un-imported) vehicles in Mexico, that they have title to. A Mexican citizen, having permanent resident status in the US, can own and operate a motor vehicle in Az, the same as a US citizen. This same individual can legally drive their foreign registered vehicle in Mexico the same as any other tourist. In Mexico, this individual is considered a Mexican citizen, regardless of their status in the US, and must be on the title of a foreign registered vehicle that they drive in Mexico. My wife is a Mexican citizen, is on the title of our vehicles that she drives in Mexico, in accordance with Mexican law.
The Mexican law is intended to apprehend those who sell stolen vehicles in Mexico. Obviously, it is abused, and used as a means by Hacienda to steal vehicles from individuals strictly on a technicality.
The posts of the latter part of this thread were focused on the subject of the legality of Mexican nationals driving foreign registered vehicles in Mexico, not the nationalization of foreign vehicles in Mexico, a totally different subject, and a rather complicated process.
A question about CONDEFA plated vehicles was raised and addressed by two posters. To add to what has been posted, their are virtually no requirements or restrictions imposed on those owning or operating such vehicles. There has been some Mexican federal government opposition to the existence of these "civic" organizations, but they still exist, and there seems to be even more of them.
Sorry, Rosy, I disagree. Aduana and Hacienda have nothing to do with each other. It is illegal for anyone to drive an "un-imported" vehicle in Mexico, whether foreign or Mexican national. Tourists are not in violation of Mexican law for driving their foreign registered (un-imported) vehicles in Mexico, that they have title to. A Mexican citizen, having permanent resident status in the US, can own and operate a motor vehicle in Az, the same as a US citizen. This same individual can legally drive their foreign registered vehicle in Mexico the same as any other tourist. In Mexico, this individual is considered a Mexican citizen, regardless of their status in the US, and must be on the title of a foreign registered vehicle that they drive in Mexico. My wife is a Mexican citizen, is on the title of our vehicles that she drives in Mexico, in accordance with Mexican law.
The Mexican law is intended to apprehend those who sell stolen vehicles in Mexico. Obviously, it is abused, and used as a means by Hacienda to steal vehicles from individuals strictly on a technicality.
The Aduana is Customs. All importations (vehicles or otherwise) are overseen by Hacienda. In my mind, the two are linked. Other than that, I fail to see what we're disagreeing on. Mexicans are considered Mexicans in Mexico, regardless of how the US sees them? Check. All cars that aren't in Mexico for touristic purposes must be imported? Check. I'm being told the Mexican doesn't have to be on the title to the US vehicle he/she is driving so long as they can show proof of legal US residence and authorization to drive the car. On the other hand, if I were that Mexican, I wouldn't risk it...so...check.
The Mexican Consulate website says that for temporary importation of vehicles from the US, Mexican citizens will need to show proof of legal status in the States. They will also have to prove their relationship to the owner or show a rental contract. It doesn't say that the Mexican must own the car.